Gaza aid flotilla raid: Turkey criticises Israel report

I did not claim anything or tried too lol

wow the 3rd page and you havn't made any claims?
that is as laughable as the megaphone project.

So is it good thing or bad?

It weakens the validity of the report and its claims, if the report is weak and of questionable validity then it is bad.

My god....really...

So you have nothing to say.
Well done.

You contradict your self here......

There is no contradiction.

Israel never was good at the propaganda thingy.

Thats strange, they have had some great results over the years.

Lying to every one is not our cup of tea it seems.

The rush jobs are always so ridiculous they fall apart quickly, when it puts the work in to it its as good at lying as any other govt.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

wow the 3rd page and you havn't made any claims?
.

No ...i have a flew and just passing time at home on internet.
That why i even bother to answer you.

No ...

As that simpy isn't true that makes you a liar doesn't it.
Well done

BTW I like your edit, are those more claims you are not making?
Damn, several of those claims you clearly didn't make also fall apart instantly.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

As that simpy isn't true that makes you a liar doesn't it.
Well done

Good point.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The main problem with the report is over the nature of the conflict and the status of the territory, which of course leads to the problem of which laws apply.
The secondary problem is the legality of the blockade in the first place, that has been partially recognised by Israel in several of their amendements to the blockade which were violating international law by blocking humanitarian aid.
The report skims over those which is why it is questionable, after all it would legitimise Hamas and their claims wouldn't it.

please quote with the names included, otherwise it becomes terrible confusing

That's why I mentioned especially the pages 45-90. I usually struggle with juristic texts in a foreign language, but this is relative easy to read. A brief summary: Israel does not deny that they have an armed conflict with Hamas. The status is that Gaza is not an occupied territoy anymore, since Israel drew his troops out in 2005. So they have no more de-facto control over Gaza, regardless they accept that the 4th geneva convention is valid (page 47)
They also claim that the nature of the conflict is a complex one, and that there are many different positions, but also accept the fact that they are"bound by international humanitarian law" (p. 49) The humanitarian situation is being handled on the pages 64-90.
We are not talking about a siege here, but about a naval blockade, this is a big difference.
So this report makes sense and is conclusive, many positions and also many jurisdictional decisions are being presented. It is not that Israel is a banana republic, their courts are independent.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I disagree on the second point, special forces were best for what was being attempted.
Plus add a third which came out at the time, in that the raid didn't get the political approval it was supposed to recieve before it was launched.

I still think it was a failure of Israel's intelligence agencies, that they didn't get the fact that the ships had their share of fanatics onboard, who would not give in when hey see military, but rather fight back as a mob. They just didn't calculated in so much resistance. And a situation like this is imo better handled by forces who are experienced in riot control.

About the political approval, I am uncertain what you mean. I can't tell you much about Israel's internal situation and the approval of the people about a situation like this prior to the event.
If you mean the approval of the international community: well, it is often that Israel is painted as the bully, regardless how many measures they do to try to avoid unnecessary (civilian) casualties. Remember the situation in 2008 about the operation Cast Lead. How much you could read in the press about leaflets that the IDF dropped prior to attacks and much you could hear about the phosphorous grenades? Of course you can't avoid civilian casualties, especially in an area like Gaza. However one should recognize IDF's efforts in minimizing these, they do a much better job than many other armies in doing so.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Because it was a propoganda exercise, and it worked far better than they could have hoped.

My question was more of a rhetorical nature: of course was the flotilla a propaganda coup. If they would really want to help, there were many ways that are more effective. I agree, the propaganda effect they got was more than they had dreamt of.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Do they?

Well, you didn't state too much of your own opinion yet. I know you want people to think of their own - me either- but it helps a lot to know where your opinion comes from. So what is your take on the whole thing?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Penguin

My question was more of a rhetorical nature: of course was the flotilla a propaganda coup. If they would really want to help, there were many ways that are more effective. I agree, the propaganda effect they got was more than they had dreamt of.

They got their 5 minuets of fame initially.
There are also those that will cling to anything that supports their antagonist views or say that the inquiry was fabricated.

Overall i think the incident showed a true nature of some organizations that try to portrait themselves as innocent peace organization whose sole propose is to fight propaganda war against Israel by manipulating mainly EU public.
It uncovered the hypocrisy of those organization and to some extent the whole Gaza issue.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by MH

Overall i think the incident showed a true nature of some organizations that try to portrait themselves as innocent peace organization whose sole propose is to fight propaganda war against Israel by manipulating mainly EU public.

The Turks - government and Turkish organisations - had a big hand in organising the flotilla from beginning. While propaganda for the EU audience came as a nice side-effect, the main direction they were aiming at from Erdoghan'S and the government's side where the Arab people. By profiling itself as the broker of Palestinian interest and challenging the Israelis, hopefully embarassing them, Erdoghan tried (and tries) to collect support and sympathy from the population in Arab countries, and strenghen Turkey'S influence and the general acceptance for Turkey amongst Arabs (the relations between Turks and Arabs are stressful due to the Ottoman past where the Turkish empire looked down on the Arabs and let them know that it considered Turks to be superior to Arabs)

The flotilla calculation worked well for Erdoghan - both with the Arabs and the Europeans.

His support for Hamas and Hezbollah, his lining up with Iran and calling it a friend, his merely hidden opposition to and suspected sabotaging of Western attempts to contain the Iranian nuclear program, his proliferation of UN- or Western-banned deals with Hezbollah and Iran, and the massive shift in Turkey towards orthodox fundamentalism that the AKP is maintaining, must be seen in this light. Erdoghan sees modern Turkey and himself as the successor to the Ottomans' attempt of becoming dominant not only in Europe, but the oriental region as well, and for that he paves the way by sowing a seed that he hopes will rise acceptance and sympathy for Turkey amongst Arabs. Love for the Palestinian'S fate, has nothign to do with Erdoghan'S mission, but his hate for Israel. When the Palestinians have served their functional purpose, Turkey most likely would let them down like almost all other Arabs did, too, for there is nothing with the Palestinians that is of worth or any kind of potential for anybody, just the promise of future troubles with them. And for Iran, the Palestinians are just a proxy.

The Palestinian government in the West-Jordan-Land, is cursing Erdoghan. They would prefer him being gone better yesterday than tomorrow, for the Hamas in Gaza that Erdoghan supports is hostile to the government in WJL.

However, MH, I see that it is just you and the other. Don't forget to switch off the light once you are done here.

please quote with the names included, otherwise it becomes terrible confusing

The following are all yours Penguin, though I must say its rather funny that skybird seem to have an issue with you, did you upset him by calling his racial/religious bigotry akin to the writings in mein kampf?

A brief summary: Israel does not deny that they have an armed conflict with Hamas.

What is the nature of that conflict? Is it an international one between states?

The status is that Gaza is not an occupied territoy anymore, since Israel drew his troops out in 2005.

That status is very questionable, after all what is the actual status of the territory?
Territory of a piece of land in this context includes airspace and where applicable the sea, what is the position on that?

They also claim that the nature of the conflict is a complex one,

It certainly is.

and that there are many different positions

Which is why they need to get definitive anwsers established on the status and nature of the issues before they can even attempt to claim legitimacy under law as they need to apply the correct laws.
In nearly every case there they are basing their "legality" on a dubious premise.

but also accept the fact that they are"bound by international humanitarian law"

And since the time of the incident they have changed their blockade policies because it was breaking that humanitarian law they were bound by.
If it was breaking those laws at the time of the incident then it cannot have been a legal blockade then.

We are not talking about a siege here, but about a naval blockade, this is a big difference.

It is a land, sea and air blockade, this incident just happened to be a maritime one which was a dispute about the land one

About the political approval, I am uncertain what you mean.

There was a big stink in Israel as events went pear shaped, the operation was set up and ready to go but was supposed to get a final go ahead at ministerial level. It went ahead without getting the final approval.

So what is your take on the whole thing?

On the Gaza issue or the whole mess in the formerly mandated territories?

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

There was a big stink in Israel as events went pear shaped, the operation was set up and ready to go but was supposed to get a final go ahead at ministerial level. It went ahead without getting the final approval.


On the Gaza issue or the whole mess in the formerly mandated territosries?

You are one of those nazi ufo conspiracy theory suporters i guess.
You dig so hard to find any flaws so you may have reason for your antagonist ideas.
I wonder what really hides there.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by MH

There are also those that will cling to anything that supports their antagonist views or say that the inquiry was fabricated.

Only people who want to think on their own can be change thier minds. There will always be people who will deny that there is a moon if Israel's astronoms say there is one . But even if Erdogan would be convinced that the report makes sense, it would be a political suicide for him if he says so in public.

Originally Posted by MH

Overall i think the incident showed a true nature of some organizations that try to portrait themselves as innocent peace organization whose sole propose is to fight propaganda war against Israel by manipulating mainly EU public.
It uncovered the hypocrisy of those organization and to some extent the whole Gaza issue.

I believe that there also were activists with honest intentions on the boats. They must ask themselves however why they jumped into bed with an organization like this. Even before the incident it was known that the ship to gaza organization is not neutral, to understate a little... The people who participated just could have informed themselves beofre.
These people became the usefull idiots to show the credibility of the flotilla.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

The following are all yours Penguin, though I must say its rather funny that skybird seem to have an issue with you, did you upset him by calling his racial/religious bigotry akin to the writings in mein kampf?

q??? did I make it on Skybird's ignore list? Don't know. lol if that is true. On some issued I agree with him on others I just smack my head against the wall I don't care what anybody thinks of me, but I leave the name-calling to others

Originally Posted by Tribesman

What is the nature of that conflict? Is it an international one between states?
That status is very questionable, after all what is the actual status of the territory?
...
Territory of a piece of land in this context includes airspace and where applicable the sea, what is the position on that?
...
Which is why they need to get definitive anwsers established on the status and nature of the issues before they can even attempt to claim legitimacy under law as they need to apply the correct laws.
In nearly every case there they are basing their "legality" on a dubious premise.

just read the report, I am not Israel's lawyer, nor do I live there. I just build my opinion about the whole incident.
If you ask 2 experts for international law, you'll get 3 answers, if you ask 2 israeli judges, you'll get 4 . The different point-of-views are all documented in the report
Hamas has the political control over the territory, this is what matters for the Israelis. They are not at war with Gaza, or the palestine territories, but with a terrorist organization that is in political charge and de-facto control over the territory.
But the nature doen't matter in this case. Israek lets goods into gaza. We can discuss if that's enough, or if the wrong good are regarded as contraband. However speaking of starvation of the palestinians or talking about a holocaust in Gaza, seen on demonstrations or heard from arab statements, is not only tasteless but more than wrong .

Originally Posted by Tribesman

And since the time of the incident they have changed their blockade policies because it was breaking that humanitarian law they were bound by.
If it was breaking those laws at the time of the incident then it cannot have been a legal blockade then.

The big problem with the good they let into,is that much stuff can be used for more than one purpose. The example of concrete may be the most obvious, as it can be used for construction of houses and infrastucture as well as for building shelters. Even shelters are dual: they can be used to protect civilians, or to protect fighters or mortar/rocket launchers.
Some stuff may sound crazy on the first look, for example that Israel (had?) allowed no canned food to be shipped into Gaza. But the metal from the cans can also be used for military purposes.
All the reports from international sources that I've seen/read about the situation in Gaza they point to one fact: Hamas gets their hands on the goods first & they organize their distribution. Of course do their supporters get the most, their opponents nothing.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

It is a land, sea and air blockade, this incident just happened to be a maritime one which was a dispute about the land one

Point for you, I meant a blockade is not a siege, regardless if it's on land/underwater/in space

Originally Posted by Tribesman

On the Gaza issue or the whole mess in the formerly mandated territories?

on both, I wrote a little bit about where I come from on this issue, so did MH, now it's your turn

You are one of those nazi ufo conspiracy theory suporters i guess.

Is that a new strain of the flu you have as it appears to have affected your mind.

You dig so hard to find any flaws so you may have reason for your antagonist ideas.

The flaws were obvious, there was no digging needed.
The fact that you won't even look shows that it is you who has the problem, it could best be described as blind belief which is something you earlier ridiculously claimed to avoid.

I wonder what really hides there.

It is you that is trying to hide MH.
You are so desperate to avoid the truth of the issues that you fall back to the rather useless default position which is increasingly meaningless.

On to Penguin

q??? did I make it on Skybird's ignore list?

You must have, after all there is apparently only MH and the other here so you must be the other

On some issued I agree with him on others I just smack my head against the wall

I know, he does raise some good points on some issues, on many though he clearly appears to be certifiable.

just read the report,

And???????
Would you like to go through it piece by piece, after all it might be the best way to show the inconsistancies in its compilation and thus its questionable validity as a definitive report on the legality.
For example.....
What did yo think about the waffle included about the historicalmaritime trade under different situations and how in any way they could be relevant to the issues in hand given the nature of the changing staus the territory has undergone and the difficulty in defining its present status.

If you ask 2 experts for international law, you'll get 3 answers, if you ask 2 israeli judges, you'll get 4

Exactly, and given the admitted lack of input and the existance of other delivered and ongoing reports which also variously lack input it raises questions of the validity of the findings of this report without even looking at it, when you read it the inconsistancies and questions mount at a rather rapid pace.

But the nature doen't matter in this case.

In this case the nature and the status are core to the issue.

We can discuss if that's enough, or if the wrong good are regarded as contraband.

Israel has already made that descision, the crossing when open even at full capacity cannot accomodate the required tonnage and the changes in the restrictions show that they know their definitions of contraband at the time were wrong.
Both those issues show Israel knows the questionable legality of the blockade at the time yet are pretty much skipped over in the report.

However speaking of starvation of the palestinians or talking about a holocaust in Gaza, seen on demonstrations or heard from arab statements, is not only tasteless but more than wrong

So your issue is with some crazy statements made elsewhere.

The big problem with the good they let into,is that much stuff can be used for more than one purpose.

Yes, sugar can be used in very nasty ways, should it be banned?

The example of concrete may be the most obvious, as it can be used for construction of houses and infrastucture as well as for building shelters.

You mean cement. Like the red cross said, you can obtain cement ....at a very very high price from hamas as they are smuggling piles of it into the territory.
Which of course as well as touching on the humanitarian aid angle also comes back to the legality issue regarding effectiveness of the blockade, after all if Hamas is able to maintain their own imported supply and sell on their surplus it means that the effectiveness is not only "not really effective at all" but is also counter productive.

Point for you, I meant a blockade is not a siege

Probably because "siege" is bandied around in the media a lot, rather like your earlier "starvation" instead of malnutrition.
Slightly OT but in relation to another word youmentioned "holocaust", did you see the open letter to Fox news complaining about Murdochs network insuting Jews and diminishing the horror they faced as well as spouting the tired old anti-semitism that everyone hoped would be consigned to history by now?

now it's your turn

Basics, one state or two?
Each has its major benefits and each has its major problems.
The current 3 bits is too much like another partition fiasco from the same time and is in fact a result of what quite frankly must have been one of the dumbest political suggestions of the last century.
But to go on the two state basis as you want to avoid the minority rule problems that came about in that other mandated territory to the North.

Settlements...got to go , making "facts on the ground" makes only one fact, they are illegal and if you want to make a settlement based on legality and claim to be following international law then they have to go without question.
Besides which they are too expensive to maintain, after all thats why the unilateral pull out went ahead in Gaza.
What to do wih the illegal settlers is simple, apply the absentee laws to the huge stock of vacant housing in Israel itself and that will also lower the housing/welfare subsidies and security cost.

Priorites. Syria, biggest problem. Forget Iran for now as Syria is more important to sort. Once again illegal settlements have to go and annexation is illegal since the Nazis fell. Demilitarisation of Golan must be guaranteed with teeth and international pressure must force syria to get rid of its WMDs and guarantee a negotioted equitable agreement on water rights.
Leb, simple screw Hezballah by pulling out of half the remaining village and turn the farms area over to Lebanon, that removes their "legitimate" claims, brings compliance on another issue and pulls the rug from Syria. If you stop feeding the beast it will weaken, keep piling it with fresh food and it gorges. Don't forget that Hez is a product of a proxy war that was the product of a proxy war.

Hamas, heres the bugger, Trimble could have given a few pointers on this. You have to talk to them, you have to make concessions to them and you have to demand concessions from them. Nothing will be achieved otherwise and the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable for all involved.
The same arguements which are now being used against this process are exactly the same arguements which have been used against the same process every time up until the point that they get past the dumb obstinacy and do it.

Would you like to go on to the other States which are still officialy at war with Israel or explore the proposals put forward by the wahibis ?

[Gerald]

A new Turkish action movie based on last year's Israeli commando raid on a Gaza aid ship could further strain Ankara's already frosty relations with Israel.

The film, Valley of the Wolves: Palestine, opens this weekend. It has already stirred controversy for its simplistic portrayal of Israelis as brutal oppressors of the Palestinians.

Nine Turkish citizens were killed in the commando raid, which sparked widespread anger in Turkey.

The movie's opening in Germany, which has a large Turkish community, was delayed by a day while the official film regulator considered how to rate it. Some German politicians have condemned it as anti-Semitic.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12306796

Note: 28 January 2011 Last updated at 13:44 GMT

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

You must have, after all there is apparently only MH and the other here so you must be the other




Settlements...got to go , making "facts on the ground" makes only one fact, they are illegal and if you want to make a settlement based on legality and claim to be following international law then they have to go without question.
Besides which they are too expensive to maintain, after all thats why the unilateral pull out went ahead in Gaza.
What to do wih the illegal settlers is simple, apply the absentee laws to the huge stock of vacant housing in Israel itself and that will also lower the housing/welfare subsidies and security cost.

Whole stock of vacant housing in Israel?
Where you take your info from Al Jazira?
The whole issue of territories is about Israeli security.
The "dream" of of settling west bank has no hold in reality for most Israelis and is not the reason for us being there.
Who will guarantee my well benign when If border with PA will run 2 km from my house.
Do you think that maintain this kind of security will be cheaper?
Will the UN and EU intervene when mortal shells and rockets fall on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.
Will UN Back Israel if military action style "Cast Lead" will be needed?
All UN can do is talk and send rice to third world coutures while trying to maintain political correctness keeping every one happy.
Can the PA guarantee Israeli security?
Who will guarantee that PA will still be in power tomorrow.
From my point of vew West Bank settelments and Israeli army there are scurity buffer keeping truble away from hart of Israel.
Your thinking is typical European naive way that has no hold in reality.
From my point of view at current state of matters its a suicide.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Priorites. Syria, biggest problem. Forget Iran for now as Syria is more important to sort. Once again illegal settlements have to go and annexation is illegal since the Nazis fell. Demilitarisation of Golan must be guaranteed with teeth and international pressure must force syria to get rid of its WMDs and guarantee a negotioted equitable agreement on water rights.
Leb, simple screw Hezballah by pulling out of half the remaining village and turn the farms area over to Lebanon, that removes their "legitimate" claims, brings compliance on another issue and pulls the rug from Syria. If you stop feeding the beast it will weaken, keep piling it with fresh food and it gorges. Don't forget that Hez is a product of a proxy war that was the product of a proxy war.
?

You have lot of faith in international community but Israeli have less and less.
We simply can not base decisions on faith in international community.
Naive thinking again.
think again.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Hamas, heres the bugger, Trimble could have given a few pointers on this. You have to talk to them, you have to make concessions to them and you have to demand concessions from them. Nothing will be achieved otherwise and the current state of affairs is simply unsustainable for all involved.
The same arguements which are now being used against this process are exactly the same arguements which have been used against the same process every time up until the point that they get past the dumb obstinacy and do it.

Would you like to go on to the other States which are still officialy at war with Israel or explore the proposals put forward by the wahibis ?

You have to talk to hammas?
Hammas ideology can not allow to make any substential compromise worth the paper writen on.
So whats the point.

I really hoped that you would surprise me but its all typical bull.

Whole stock of vacant housing in Israel?
Where you take your info from Al Jazira?

You really are on a run with silly assumptions ain't ya, you should perhaps quit while you are still stuck struggling at the starting blocks.
Or don't you realise your government has departments which funnily enough produce data...on strange things like errrrr....housing

The whole issue of territories is about Israeli security.

Bull, its about land.
Every settlement in the territories requires a buffer for security, then they build out into the buffer which means they need a new buffer for security, then they build out into the new buffer which means they need a new buffer.
Plus of course it needs roads which need their own buffer for security and the buffer needs its own roads for access which require their own buffer for security....thats why the land grabs are such a drain on the finances.
If it was about security they wouldn't permit citizens to move into the zones as it would be courting danger.

The "dream" of of settling west bank has no hold in reality for most Israelis

I refer you back to the earlier statement about the nuts and the disproportianate influence they exert.

Who will guarantee my well benign when If border with PA will run 2 km from my house.

Who will guarantee your well being if you are 40km away?

Will the UN and EU intervene when mortal shells and rockets fall on Jerusalem and Tel Aviv.

Did you read what was written?

Will UN Back Israel if military action style "Cast Lead" will be needed?

I hope not as "cast lead" was a disaster.

Can the PA guarantee Israeli security?

Can Israel guarantee Israeli security?

Who will guarantee that PA will still be in power tomorrow.

Are they even in power today?

From my point of vew West Bank settelments and Israeli army there are scurity buffer keeping truble away from hart of Israel.

see above

Your thinking is typical European naive way that has no hold in reality.

As your view is by its very nature unsustainable impractical and unjustifiable does that make you naive or european or just detatched from reality?

We simply can not base decisions on faith in international community.
Naive thinking again.
think again.

Your whole existance is dependant on the international community.
Are you so naive or deeply in denial that you can't see it?

You have to talk to hammas?

There is no other viable option.

Hammas ideology can not allow to make any substential compromise worth the paper writen on.

The same as is said throughout history until it is proven wrong again and again.

So whats the point.

Errrrrr....you have no other viable options.

I really hoped that you would surprise me but its all typical bull.

And I really hoped you would think, but you are in typical closed minded lockstep, not quite as bad a Dimitrius was here but not that far off when you scrape the surface.

[MH]

Originally Posted by Tribesman

You really are on a run with silly assumptions ain't ya, you should perhaps quit while you are still stuck struggling at the starting blocks.
Or don't you realise your government has departments which funnily enough produce data...on strange things like errrrr....housing
.

Ufo theories again?
You try to be smart above you intelligence.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Bull, its about land.
Every settlement in the territories requires a buffer for security, then they build out into the buffer which means they need a new buffer for security, then they build out into the new buffer which means they need a new buffer.
Plus of course it needs roads which need their own buffer for security and the buffer needs its own roads for access which require their own buffer for security....thats why the land grabs are such a drain on the finances.
If it was about security they wouldn't permit citizens to move into the zones as it would be courting danger.
.

True...
Thats why IDF and security forces are there.
No setelments no IDF =total anarchy
thriving ground for terrorist.
Sometimes thological thinking is not needed.
.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I refer you back to the earlier statement about the nuts and the disproportianate influence they exert.
.

Israel withdrew from Gaza so their influence while exist is not such big as noisy.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Who will guarantee your well being if you are 40km away?
.

IDF 40 km away.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Did you read what was written?
.

i did

Originally Posted by Tribesman

I hope not as "cast lead" was a disaster.
.

Was it?
It says a lot.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Can Israel guarantee Israeli security?
.

Israel does its best on its own.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Are they even in power today?
.

They do not so bad compeering to hammas.
All thats way they have lots of enemies in Arab world.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

see above
.

You are not so smart do you?
Thats exacly it -WAKE UP MAN.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

As your view is by its very nature unsustainable impractical and unjustifiable does that make you naive or european or just detatched from reality?.

Impractical......

Originally Posted by Tribesman

Your whole existance is dependant on the international community.
Are you so naive or deeply in denial that you can't see it?

If so i prefer to suicide my way.

Originally Posted by Tribesman

There is no other viable option.

Says who Tribsman......

Originally Posted by Tribesman

And I really hoped you would think, but you are in typical closed minded lockstep, not quite as bad a Dimitrius was here but not that far off when you scrape the surface.

Off course im....i shell try to open my mind to vibes of universe.
BW
Whats between you and Dimitrus.