Burn Witches! Burn!

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by IanC

Ok I've seen a few of these "I've met Dan in person..." comments from different members. I'm assuming you guys talked in depth about game development. You're not saying the devs can do no wrong just because you've had a beer with the guy, right?

That is correct

[IanC]

[Patkins1983]

I feel sorry for the Dev team, they are at the coalface doing their best and being sold short by the higher ups.

They probably arent as lucky as me, I can say no to a product going out and thats it for 12hrs until the next worker comes on and folds under pressure.

Chances have it they pointed out that the time scale for development wasnt enough and got pressured into making sacrifices to stay in a job.

Well, thats my hat in the ring

[McBeck]

Originally Posted by Placoderm

You highlight MY name and not the other persons, when all I did was try to keep the thread ON topic by calling out someone who appeard to be obviusly trolling.

Copy/paste error. I did not mean to highlight you more than tonschk.
I guess Ill not make THAT mistake anytime soon!

[Reece]

Originally Posted by Patkins1983

I feel sorry for the Dev team

I don't! they are on a high pay and do their job like us, what the bosses do with it is their business, maybe a little frustrating but nothing they can do, what annoys me is all our protesting/ranting etc does nothing, UBI PR is I feel sorry for the people who purchased the game!

[Placoderm]

Originally Posted by McBeck

Copy/paste error. I did not mean to highlight you more than tonschk.
I guess Ill not make THAT mistake anytime soon!

LOL! No problem McBeck...we've got it sorted out! (your intentions were good, and that is what matters anyway!)


As a bonus...it got me to post something in this thread myself that was on-topic, so overall it was a win-win situation for everyone! (except, of course for those poor confused saps who don't completely agree with me)

[Zedi]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

That is correct

That explains a lot and why so many in this community is so tolerant with the poor game development over the years. So no matter how bugged is the game, Ubi (devs, suits etc) will be threated well because the are "our friends". Not good ...

Wish I had a similar job, where I can **** up things but get no sanctions just because my customers are my friends.. a real dream job.

[IanC]

Originally Posted by Magnum

That explains a lot and why so many in this community is so tolerant with the poor game development over the years. So no matter how bugged is the game, Ubi (devs, suits etc) will be threated well because the are "our friends". Not good ...

Wish I had a similar job, where I can **** up things but get no sanctions just because my customers are my friends.. a real dream job.

I think you misinterpreted Jim's answer to me. He was saying it's not just because they had a beer. It's because they talked in depth about game development.

[Zedi]

Originally Posted by IanC

I think you misinterpreted Jim's answer to me. He was saying it's not just because they had a beer. It's because they talked in depth about game development.

It's the same thing for me. Like I said, I wish I could have a job where I can get friendly with my customers so when I fail, they will cry on my shoulder instead of complaining at the management and get me fired.

[McBeck]

Originally Posted by Magnum

It's the same thing for me. Like I said, I wish I could have a job where I can get friendly with my customers so when I fail, they will cry on my shoulder instead of complaining at the management and get me fired.

I think you have misunderstood this whole relationship. Do you really think that we would side with the devs if we thought they were to blame for this mess?

[JScones]

IMHO people here need to stop singling out one man and equating the success of SH5 to his personality. I mean, Dan might be the greatest guy in the world, but he is part of a team...and not a small team by the looks of things.

I think Alexandru Gris, the SH5 Project Manager/Producer (Ubisoft Romania), provides great insight into the workings of the Romanian dev team on his blog.

To put his comments into perspective, here's the SH4 dev team bios.

Read into all this what you like. But certainly, it makes a mockery of comments like "I've met Dan and he's a great guy so don't blame the devs" or "Dan will fix it for us!". Such comments might be true if Dan was the team, Project Manager, or even Lead Programmer, but erm...

I'd actually argue that if anything put pressure on him it's comments like "I've met Dan, and I trust him" or "Dan's a great guy, he'll fix it for us". That's a LOT of weight for someone who is a member of a team and is much harder to dismiss as the ramblings of a mad man than the usual "it's all the devs fault".

Anyway, I think Alex's blog entry paints a clear picture that might just challenge the beliefs of some people here...

[Faamecanic]

I somewhat disagree with you Privateer.... but here is why.

IF the devs KNEW the timeline and budget they had before starting development of SH5, then they HAD to know that were in over thier heads. They over promised and under-achived.... meanwhile letting bugs that have been known bugs since SH3 slip through yet again, because they didnt "have time" to address them. That is unexcusable.

IF UBI placed the demands for all the extra goodies, knowing full well the timeline and budget, and ignored the devs in saying "It will be a challange to get that much done on this timeline, with this budget" (in the corporate world that is saying there is no way this can be done, without sounding negative), then shame on UBI for pressuring the Devs.

Bottom line is I can excuse all the minor bugs, I can excuse the lack of depth with the Crew interactions, I can excuse the war ending in 1943, and I can excuse the fact that we only have one sub to command.

What I find totally unacceptable is the bugs that have migrated from each of the SH series that are hard-coded. I find it unaceptable that the UI is an abomination that MOST subsimmers abhor. And I find it unacceptable that any product can be released in such an unfinished state, no matter who is to blame.

That last point needs careful thought. Sure...we here at subsim know our Modders will fix and make SH5 great. But out of all the people that bought SH5... I bet we are a small part of that population. So for the larger part of the population that bought SH5, that have no idea about the moddability of this franchise, how does that look on Ubi? Will these simmers/gamers buy the NEXT SH release (doubtful). How many simmers have been lost with sH3's unfinished release, how many with SH4??

Just look at the title to the review of SH5 in PC Gamer Magazine (the largest US Gamer magazine) .... "20,000 Beta tests Under the sea" and the 55 out of 100 rating. How much harm did that do the franchise's future sales?

IF the devs wanted to chock all this new stuff in to make us happy (and I suspect themselves also) I applaud thier vision. But sometimes you have to reign in your desires and dreams and be realistic.

To me it looks like the Devs vision, while grand!, did more harm than good to the franchise. And releasing a sim that is open and moddable will not help the sales numbers, which in the end is all UBI looks at.

If we are such a niche market, I would think it bad to discourage potential buyers with every release.

Thats my .02 cents...

[Faamecanic]

Originally Posted by McBeck

I have worked with IT projects for more than 5 years. Both as Project Manager and lately as a Program Manager.

Its a fact that the project can scream "The project is not yet done" / "Quality is not good enough" and management can say "We dont care - get it done now, no matter what"

I will bet you that this discussion have happened between the devs and the management...and management didn't listen.

Most likely because they didn't get measured on quality, but on deadlines and budget. Ubisoft management is probably right now doing the blamegame for the poor reviews and sales....wonder who becomes the fallguy

Agree with this.... but still think the Dev Project managment takes some of the blame. Had this been the first time they worked for Ubi on SH...then I wouldnt blame them at all.

But we have had three releases now... all of which crammed as much new stuff in as possible, and most of it half done and need 3 + patches to get it working enough to barely call it a final release (one patch being a PAID patch...which was baloney).

So you would think the Dev team would have released this and adjusted accordingly.

What Im trying to say is the blame goes both ways. The devs blame is overpromising/commiting and UBI by not giving enough time or budget. I mean cripes had UBI allowed a few months for beta test....that would have found/fixed most of the major bugs at least.

[McBeck]

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

I somewhat disagree with you Privateer.... but here is why.

IF the devs KNEW the timeline and budget they had before starting development of SH5, then they HAD to know that were in over thier heads. They over promised and under-achived.... meanwhile letting bugs that have been known bugs since SH3 slip through yet again, because they didnt "have time" to address them. That is unexcusable.

IF UBI placed the demands for all the extra goodies, knowing full well the timeline and budget, and ignored the devs in saying "It will be a challange to get that much done on this timeline, with this budget" (in the corporate world that is saying there is no way this can be done, without sounding negative), then shame on UBI for pressuring the Devs.

Bottom line is I can excuse all the minor bugs, I can excuse the lack of depth with the Crew interactions, I can excuse the war ending in 1943, and I can excuse the fact that we only have one sub to command.

What I find totally unacceptable is the bugs that have migrated from each of the SH series that are hard-coded. I find it unaceptable that the UI is an abomination that MOST subsimmers abhor. And I find it unacceptable that any product can be released in such an unfinished state, no matter who is to blame.

That last point needs careful thought. Sure...we here at subsim know our Modders will fix and make SH5 great. But out of all the people that bought SH5... I bet we are a small part of that population. So for the larger part of the population that bought SH5, that have no idea about the moddability of this franchise, how does that look on Ubi? Will these simmers/gamers buy the NEXT SH release (doubtful). How many simmers have been lost with sH3's unfinished release, how many with SH4??

Just look at the title to the review of SH5 in PC Gamer Magazine (the largest US Gamer magazine) .... "20,000 Beta tests Under the sea" and the 55 out of 100 rating. How much harm did that do the franchise's future sales?

IF the devs wanted to chock all this new stuff in to make us happy (and I suspect themselves also) I applaud thier vision. But sometimes you have to reign in your desires and dreams and be realistic.

To me it looks like the Devs vision, while grand!, did more harm than good to the franchise. And releasing a sim that is open and moddable will not help the sales numbers, which in the end is all UBI looks at.

If we are such a niche market, I would think it bad to discourage potential buyers with every release.

Thats my .02 cents...

Dealing with projects is never simple - Things always go wrong. You can have a budget, you can a scope and you can have a plan, but the fact is that sooooo many things can and will happen. Its all about how you deal with it.
In this case we will never know the full story - thats for sure.

[Zedi]

Originally Posted by McBeck

Dealing with projects is never simple - Things always go wrong. You can have a budget, you can a scope and you can have a plan, but the fact is that sooooo many things can and will happen. Its all about how you deal with it.
In this case we will never know the full story - thats for sure.

And how is possible this happens only with Ubi and SH?!? How come no other company fail so much than Ubi?! How is possible that a big part of this community is still willing to accept these fails, over and over again. This is just beyond my understandings ..