Game end sequence ***Spoiler alert*** - Page 4

Faamecanic · 04-22-10, 06:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by msxyz

Most soldiers fight wars they did not choose to wage but, by playing the role of an uboot commander, you're doing the bidding of the German political class of the time, like it or not. That means the nazi party.

Actual in Doenitz book...he took pride in the the fact that MOST of his Uboat commanders and sailors did NOT belong to or were forced to subscribe to the traditions of the Nazi party.

In fact after Hitlers attempted assassination at the Wolfs Lair, Hitler made the decree that ALL military must salute him with the Nazi salute or be considered for treason. Adm. Doenitz got into a rather heated discussion with Hitler and demanded that HIS KM be allowed to maintain the traditional salute (which looks like our American Military salute) because they earned it with their lives everytime they went out on a U-boat.

Bilge_Rat · 04-22-10, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Faamecanic

Actual in Doenitz book...he took pride in the the fact that MOST of his Uboat commanders and sailors did NOT belong to or were forced to subscribe to the traditions of the Nazi party.

In fact after Hitlers attempted assassination at the Wolfs Lair, Hitler made the decree that ALL military must salute him with the Nazi salute or be considered for treason. Adm. Doenitz got into a rather heated discussion with Hitler and demanded that HIS KM be allowed to maintain the traditional salute (which looks like our American Military salute) because they earned it with their lives everytime they went out on a U-boat.

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.

captainprid · 04-22-10, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.

Especially when the noose is half way over your head and there is the smell of a book deal

Faamecanic · 04-22-10, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bilge_Rat

Dont underestimate Nazi influence in the Wehrmacht, Prien was an ardent nazi. Many officers got promoted because they were ardent Nazis.

One U-Boat captain, Oskar Kusch, was denounced by his first officer for anti-Nazi sentiments, sentenced to death and shot in 1944. Donitz did not lift a finger to help him which outraged many U-Boat captains.

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

Stalin carried out a purge of his armed forces in 1937-39 because he was worried about the loyalty of his men. Hitler never had to since he knew the majority of the officers agreed with the right-wing agenda of the nazi party.

It is very easy for Donitz after the war to say that he was never really a nazi, but actions speak louder than words.

But Adm. Doenitz also went to Hitler to get one of his Jr. Officers out of the SS clink when this Jr. officer was caught in a romance with a Jewish Girl....

Sure like any big organiztion Snr. Officers and Staff/Flag officers had to tow the line to a certain degree. And I never said NONE of the KM were Nazis... a lot were. That was probably part of the downfall of Germany during WWII... a lot of the soliders and sailors were always looking over thier shoulders and not trusting thier Snr. officers or fellow officers due to some being Pro-Nazi and some just full of national pride (which SHV tries to capture with you not being neccessarily pro-Nazi, but your first officer is...).

Bilge_Rat · 04-22-10, 10:41 AM

It is well known Donitz was a Nazi and loyal to Hitler. He would not have received the promotions he did during the war if he was not.

That does not mean however that every Nazi/Nazi supporter supported every facet of nazi ideology, including the extermination of the Jewish people (although I seriously doubt every high ranking member of the Wehrmacht were as ignorant of the "Final Solution" during the war as they later claimed

).

Probably the best judgement on Donitz was rendered by his peers, the Allied admirals who fought against him, who were against his being tried as a war criminal since they were of the opinion that he had fought a tough, but clean naval war.

Back to the game, there has always been a dichotomy inherent in playing any type of realistic simulation. You can despise a particular regime, while still admiring their military prowess from a strictly professional viewpoint. The U.S. Army studied the German campaigns on the OstFront for years to get tips on how to beat the Soviets.

I despise both Hitler's and Stalin's regime, yet have no problem commanding German or Soviet pixeltruppen in CMBB, IL-2, SH5, et al. The purpose of a simulation for me is to recreate the what if factor, what would I do as commander in a particular situation, how could I do better than the real commander, who I command, whether Nazis, Soviets, Japanese, Americans, British, Canadians, Israelis, Syrians, Egyptians, Guerilla irregulars, et al. has little relevance, it is the intellectual challenge which is interesting.

Ducimus · 04-22-10, 11:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

Ducimus, try and look at it this way... no one should be hiding what the uboats were or who the Kriegsmarine/German Military was lead by.

Id never argue against the swaztika being displayed in game. Thats historical context. That flowery imagery though, crosses the line from representation, to glorification, and i will always maintain it is in POOR TASTE because of it. Your artist should have been more mindful.

Edit: I have half a mind to to post pictures of holocost victims to remind people what the swaztika stands for.

TheSatyr · 04-22-10, 11:58 AM

You also need to remember that the US Navy HAD to aid in Doenitz' defense at his trial. If Doenitz was found guilty of war crimes for his prosecution of the U-Boat war then Lockwood,Christie and Fyfe could have been viewed as war criminals as well.

GoldenRivet · 04-22-10, 12:27 PM

DRM/OSP, not worth it...

Bugs, not worth it...

and now that i have seen the end sequence, it's also not worth it...

Initiating uninstall

im not trying to be mean, I have been a diehard fan of the series since it started, but...

Silent Hunter 5 - out of the box - has been the worst, and i do mean the absolute worst video gaming purchase i have ever made... even over the PC version of blazing angels.

It has no appeal, no longevity, it is bugged beyond my comprehension, and the ending sequence is so anti-climactic its like watching paint dry.

I literally have not even fired it up in about 40 days anyway as any and all excitement i had about the game left me within about a week of purchase

danasan · 04-22-10, 12:31 PM

Moin Moin,

ON topic:

I do really think there is no need for these heroic, gloryfieing things nowadays. Looking at that image, I feel as if transported directly into the Reichskanzlei in Berlin in the 1940s.

ON the main discussion, which I really like, let me add some details, please:

I am 45 now, my father died two years ago at the age of 90.

I am sure, most of us depend on second hand information on who was nazi or not. I myself do not blame anybody to be or have been nazi, if I do not know him personally. DO NOT get me wrong, I disagree with any of their intentions anyway.
AND MANY Germans had the NSDAP party book, were in the SS, knew what was going on. Too many.

Why did I put my father here? He was a nazi and he served as a SS officer in Russia. He often told me about what he caused there. I can't help that fact. But I can still put my finger on him...

I used to be in the german army for 12 years as a tank commander and later as a platoon leader.

I had to swear, like every one else, on the flag, to fight for and defend my "fatherland".

This is and was practise before and after WWII.

In the 3rd Reich, any soldier had to swear on the flag to fight and defend A SINGLE PERSON: Adolf Hitler.

I do not know when and where exactly the soldiers were released from that, I would call it a contract with the evil, but it was after Hitler was dead.

There was surely a lot of soldier's loyalism to Hitler caused by that fact. Keep in mind there were privates too, not only officers. Keep in mind that not everybody was that educated to see what it means as a forecast. Keep in mind what happend to those being critical...

I guess anybody around the world who served in the army and had to swear on the flag can imagine in which bad condition some of these guys were.

Once again, do not get me wrong, but there are always two sides of a coin.

danasan

IanC · 04-22-10, 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danasan

Looking at that image, I feel as if transported directly into the Reichskanzlei in Berlin in the 1940s.

And that is exactly the point of the image. It's a splashscreen in a sim where you play a Captain in the service of the Reich. In other words, it's part of the sim.
Maybe I'm really missing something here, dunno...

sharkbit · 04-22-10, 12:51 PM

Nice post danasan.
I'm sure your father had some incredible stories.

danasan · 04-22-10, 12:58 PM

As I pointed out, i am somewhat older aged. We grew up with the collective fault. We (born after 1945 do not have).

I do not feel responsible for 39 - 45, and as long as dealing with history in a adequate way, we (germans) should be able to discuss things like that.

But there is still a minority here in Germany which is fed and or influenced by images like that, swastikas etc.

I have been in touch with youngsters, 16 years old, preaching the old story over and over again.

As long as somebody is able to abstact reality from fiction, like you and I can, it is OK.

Some guys here can' t so far...

IanC · 04-22-10, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by danasan

As long as somebody is able to abstact reality from fiction, like you and I can, it is OK.
Some guys here can' t so far...

Yes of course. I'm not sure how anybody can cross the fiction of a computer sim with reality, but evidently some do.

mookiemookie · 04-22-10, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanC

And that is exactly the point of the image. It's a splashscreen in a sim where you play a Captain in the service of the Reich. In other words, it's part of the sim.
Maybe I'm really missing something here, dunno...

I agree. Not really seeing how this is much different than earning medals, or wearing German uniforms or what have you. It's all part of the atmosphere and (ugh, I hate this word) IMMERSION of the sim.

And back on topic. A short clip of some stock footage of a U-boat crew returning to base with all the smiles and flowers and whatnot, with a voiceover of exactly what that screen said would make a far far better ending than what's there.

danasan · 04-22-10, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

And back on topic. A short clip of some stock footage of a U-boat crew returning to base with all the smiles and flowers and whatnot, with a voiceover of exactly what that screen said would make a far far better ending than what's there.

I agree with you. Returning to base like you said, would be great. There is nothing wrong with the uniforms and stuff.

What I am talking about regarding the image is the symbolism in it.

Even in the German UBI forums there are a few comments by unteachables mistreating other county's folk as a race of ...(there might be no translation for that). Not that much, but... It is a criminal case here. I asked the moderator two months ago for that. And they gave it to the lawyers.

I could give you an example, but it is in german language.

danasan

04-22-10, 10:41 AM	#50
Bilge_Rat Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: standing watch... Posts: 3,855 Downloads: 344 Uploads: 0	It is well known Donitz was a Nazi and loyal to Hitler. He would not have received the promotions he did during the war if he was not. That does not mean however that every Nazi/Nazi supporter supported every facet of nazi ideology, including the extermination of the Jewish people (although I seriously doubt every high ranking member of the Wehrmacht were as ignorant of the "Final Solution" during the war as they later claimed ). Probably the best judgement on Donitz was rendered by his peers, the Allied admirals who fought against him, who were against his being tried as a war criminal since they were of the opinion that he had fought a tough, but clean naval war. Back to the game, there has always been a dichotomy inherent in playing any type of realistic simulation. You can despise a particular regime, while still admiring their military prowess from a strictly professional viewpoint. The U.S. Army studied the German campaigns on the OstFront for years to get tips on how to beat the Soviets. I despise both Hitler's and Stalin's regime, yet have no problem commanding German or Soviet pixeltruppen in CMBB, IL-2, SH5, et al. The purpose of a simulation for me is to recreate the what if factor, what would I do as commander in a particular situation, how could I do better than the real commander, who I command, whether Nazis, Soviets, Japanese, Americans, British, Canadians, Israelis, Syrians, Egyptians, Guerilla irregulars, et al. has little relevance, it is the intellectual challenge which is interesting. __________________

04-22-10, 12:27 PM	#53
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	DRM/OSP, not worth it... Bugs, not worth it... and now that i have seen the end sequence, it's also not worth it... Initiating uninstall im not trying to be mean, I have been a diehard fan of the series since it started, but... Silent Hunter 5 - out of the box - has been the worst, and i do mean the absolute worst video gaming purchase i have ever made... even over the PC version of blazing angels. It has no appeal, no longevity, it is bugged beyond my comprehension, and the ending sequence is so anti-climactic its like watching paint dry. I literally have not even fired it up in about 40 days anyway as any and all excitement i had about the game left me within about a week of purchase __________________

04-22-10, 12:31 PM	#54
danasan Elite Spam Hunter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Flensburg / Germany Posts: 1,141 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	Moin Moin, ON topic: I do really think there is no need for these heroic, gloryfieing things nowadays. Looking at that image, I feel as if transported directly into the Reichskanzlei in Berlin in the 1940s. ON the main discussion, which I really like, let me add some details, please: I am 45 now, my father died two years ago at the age of 90. I am sure, most of us depend on second hand information on who was nazi or not. I myself do not blame anybody to be or have been nazi, if I do not know him personally. DO NOT get me wrong, I disagree with any of their intentions anyway. AND MANY Germans had the NSDAP party book, were in the SS, knew what was going on. Too many. Why did I put my father here? He was a nazi and he served as a SS officer in Russia. He often told me about what he caused there. I can't help that fact. But I can still put my finger on him... I used to be in the german army for 12 years as a tank commander and later as a platoon leader. I had to swear, like every one else, on the flag, to fight for and defend my "fatherland". This is and was practise before and after WWII. In the 3rd Reich, any soldier had to swear on the flag to fight and defend A SINGLE PERSON: Adolf Hitler. I do not know when and where exactly the soldiers were released from that, I would call it a contract with the evil, but it was after Hitler was dead. There was surely a lot of soldier's loyalism to Hitler caused by that fact. Keep in mind there were privates too, not only officers. Keep in mind that not everybody was that educated to see what it means as a forecast. Keep in mind what happend to those being critical... I guess anybody around the world who served in the army and had to swear on the flag can imagine in which bad condition some of these guys were. Once again, do not get me wrong, but there are always two sides of a coin. danasan __________________ "I invite you to go inside this submergible hole in the water where you can nicely hide from destroyers."

04-22-10, 12:51 PM	#56
sharkbit The Old Man Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denver, CO Posts: 1,529 Downloads: 334 Uploads: 0	Nice post danasan. I'm sure your father had some incredible stories. __________________ “Prejudice is blind. There will always be someone who says you aren’t welcome at the table. Stop apologizing for who you are and using all your energy trying to change their minds. Yes, you will lose friends, maybe even family. But you will gain your self-respect. You will know your worth. Once you have that, nothing can stop you.”

04-22-10, 12:58 PM	#57
danasan Elite Spam Hunter Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Flensburg / Germany Posts: 1,141 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	As I pointed out, i am somewhat older aged. We grew up with the collective fault. We (born after 1945 do not have). I do not feel responsible for 39 - 45, and as long as dealing with history in a adequate way, we (germans) should be able to discuss things like that. But there is still a minority here in Germany which is fed and or influenced by images like that, swastikas etc. I have been in touch with youngsters, 16 years old, preaching the old story over and over again. As long as somebody is able to abstact reality from fiction, like you and I can, it is OK. Some guys here can' t so far... __________________ "I invite you to go inside this submergible hole in the water where you can nicely hide from destroyers."

04-22-10, 11:58 AM	#52
TheSatyr Captain Join Date: Apr 2002 Posts: 545 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You also need to remember that the US Navy HAD to aid in Doenitz' defense at his trial. If Doenitz was found guilty of war crimes for his prosecution of the U-Boat war then Lockwood,Christie and Fyfe could have been viewed as war criminals as well.