Cylindrical Earth

Frederf · 02-10-10, 04:41 AM

This thread is intended as a place to discuss the actual features of the game Silent Hunter 5 based what is visible in videos, screenshots or available from interviews and press materials. Since the digital rights management aspect, controversial as it may be, is not game feature it is not appropriate for discussion in this thread; there are many other threads for such talk.

One flaw of Silent Hunter 3 and Silent Hunter 4 is that the world and the map were one and the same. The map was flat and the world was flat. This made programming easy but had nasty real world consequences. Distances (and transit times) between real world places were shown to be much, much bigger in the flat world of Silent Hunter. The real routes taken by ships over the real Earth and straight lines on the map were different leaving historical sources and in-game needs at odds.

The ideal solution is to separate the mapspace from the worldspace so one can look at a flat map on the desk of a submarine but also travel through a world of real spherical shape. There are complications for the mapspace tools as long lines of shortest distance between points are actually curves when view through the distortion of the map projection, but this is well within the capability of programming.

In some interview or text, I heard that SHV is adopting a cylindrical world which is a far, far cry from a spherical world. It seems so foolish to go through all the effort of a change and not come close to a long term solution. Surely the very shape of the Earth is a good foundation for a simulation about submarines with ranges on the order of 10,000nm.

elanaiba · 02-10-10, 04:49 AM

There's no change, its the same as in SH3/4.

Kapitanleutnant · 02-10-10, 04:55 AM

welp

martes86 · 02-10-10, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

There's no change, its the same as in SH3/4.

I thought you guys were going to use a cylindrical projection for SH5.

elanaiba · 02-10-10, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martes86

I thought you guys were going to use a cylindrical projection for SH5.

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

martes86 · 02-10-10, 07:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

Really? I'll be damned, I've been thinking otherwise for a long time.

Thanks for clearing the doubt.

SteamWake · 02-10-10, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martes86

Really? I'll be damned, I've been thinking otherwise for a long time.

Thanks for clearing the doubt.

Supprises me as well but as with any projection of a sphere onto a flat surface there is some distortion.

Kapitanleutnant · 02-10-10, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something

1944 and 1945. Hope this helps.

Hitman · 02-10-10, 09:00 AM

Quote:

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

I think what confused many people is that in SH3 the map is cut and you can't do a full turn around the earth, while in SH4 you can scroll the map and get again to the point you started from.

I have no problems with a projection map, but it is a pity that the projection used is not adjusted to compensate the curveness of the earth. The are such 2D maps, called "Mercator projections" and it would have been a nice thing to have

karamazovnew · 02-10-10, 03:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

We know that (painfully) and you've always stated that the maps in SH5 will be cylindrical. However a few eyebrows were raised when the crew special abilities were shown on SH5 official site. The navigator was stated to be able to plot the shortest path between too points "if only the player was trusted him"

) We immediately began wondering if the game would actually use a spherical Earth with a cylindrical projection Map Screen instead of just a cylindrical Earth AND cylindrical Map.

There are quite a lot of us here on the forum that only need a blank paper with the proper tools and maps and a decent modeled sextant to figure out where we are and where we need to go. A real navigation feature with currents and tides and a bit of anchorage maneuvers would be a HUGE selling point for the game, as no ship simulator for PC offers the possibility to roam the entire world. One exception might be Ship Simulator Professional, but judging from the poor quality of the gamey version, I'd rather keep my money

A lot of effort has been put into trying to develop a real navigation mod for SH3 and SH4. Actual Kriegsmarine maps are available so yeah, it's a shame we'll have to miss that in SH5 AGAIN. But for me it will be a make-or-break features of SH6

Diopos · 02-10-10, 04:03 PM

Earth curvature is a "must" if you want to talk about a "simulation" in the literal sense of the world. In the commercial-game-subsim sense of the word it is interesting to include because:
a. it is linked to fuel limitations (so you want to go from A to B via the shortest route) and
b. your targets (convoys) are moving in "shortest-route" type of lanes

Shiping lanes across an ocean would almost cetainly be plotted as curves on mercator type maps (even "S" shaped ones).
Manual targeting is considered the epitomy of sub-siming (which is really great of course), while getting in a good firing position and shadowing are considered "handy" skils also. Why not include good ocean-going navigation in the list too.

slowworm · 02-11-10, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I know I'm tired and I'm missing something but we've always used a cylindrical projection. Sh3,4,5.

It's not you. Most folks don't realize the mercator map projection is cylindrical.

What I really wanted was a true spheroid. Oh well. Maybe SH6 with real star and sunshots with a sextant and sight reduction tables......

elanaiba · 02-12-10, 04:36 AM

In SH5, it would be even much more important that REAL distances are taken into consideration. As ships and convoys can reroute dynamically, distances are an important factor.

Of course, there are ways around that, and there's a number of problems associated with spherical worlds. One being that you have to take the time to implement it and make AI work with it.

SH3, SH4, SH5, all have ships going down "under the horizon" to make up for the earth curvature.

02-10-10, 06:58 AM

Crappy game, it will be the weakest of the series in most of the respects, except the graphics. And the eye candy graphics upgrade through the years took place in ALL video game applications, so that is not a "heroic" act for this so-called Silent Hunter 5, which has almost nothing to do with the concept of naval or sub simulation. As a conclusion, the series has took its course down, with SH5 at its lowest peak. Ubisoft and the romanian developers team should be really ashamed of themselves. But of course, they've got no shame, only the burning desire to fool the market and to make money profit. I hope they won't. At least, not from me.

Hartmann · 02-10-10, 07:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gunnodayak

Crappy game, it will be the weakest of the series in most of the respects, except the graphics. And the eye candy graphics upgrade through the years took place in ALL video game applications, so that is not a "heroic" act for this so-called Silent Hunter 5, which has almost nothing to do with the concept of naval or sub simulation. As a conclusion, the series has took its course down, with SH5 at its lowest peak. Ubisoft and the romanian developers team should be really ashamed of themselves. But of course, they've got no shame, only the burning desire to fool the market and to make money profit. I hope they won't. At least, not from me.

Graphics is the only thing that some people need to say that it´s the best sim of the history, graphics and explosions , nothing more.

They targeted casual gamers and arcade fans, TDC , accurate chart plotting and late years complications are not necessary . I hope that ubi think about hardcore simmers too.

02-10-10, 04:41 AM	#1
Frederf Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 665 Downloads: 79 Uploads: 1	Cylindrical Earth This thread is intended as a place to discuss the actual features of the game Silent Hunter 5 based what is visible in videos, screenshots or available from interviews and press materials. Since the digital rights management aspect, controversial as it may be, is not game feature it is not appropriate for discussion in this thread; there are many other threads for such talk. One flaw of Silent Hunter 3 and Silent Hunter 4 is that the world and the map were one and the same. The map was flat and the world was flat. This made programming easy but had nasty real world consequences. Distances (and transit times) between real world places were shown to be much, much bigger in the flat world of Silent Hunter. The real routes taken by ships over the real Earth and straight lines on the map were different leaving historical sources and in-game needs at odds. The ideal solution is to separate the mapspace from the worldspace so one can look at a flat map on the desk of a submarine but also travel through a world of real spherical shape. There are complications for the mapspace tools as long lines of shortest distance between points are actually curves when view through the distortion of the map projection, but this is well within the capability of programming. In some interview or text, I heard that SHV is adopting a cylindrical world which is a far, far cry from a spherical world. It seems so foolish to go through all the effort of a change and not come close to a long term solution. Surely the very shape of the Earth is a good foundation for a simulation about submarines with ranges on the order of 10,000nm.

02-10-10, 04:49 AM	#2
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	There's no change, its the same as in SH3/4. __________________ With strength I burn...

02-10-10, 04:55 AM	#3
Kapitanleutnant Frogman Join Date: Dec 2009 Posts: 305 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	welp __________________ Oh worse than Hitler! You wouldn't find Hitler playing jungle music at three o'clock in the morning!

02-10-10, 04:03 PM	#11
Diopos Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Athens, the original one. Posts: 1,226 Downloads: 9 Uploads: 0	Earth curvature is a "must" if you want to talk about a "simulation" in the literal sense of the world. In the commercial-game-subsim sense of the word it is interesting to include because: a. it is linked to fuel limitations (so you want to go from A to B via the shortest route) and b. your targets (convoys) are moving in "shortest-route" type of lanes Shiping lanes across an ocean would almost cetainly be plotted as curves on mercator type maps (even "S" shaped ones). Manual targeting is considered the epitomy of sub-siming (which is really great of course), while getting in a good firing position and shadowing are considered "handy" skils also. Why not include good ocean-going navigation in the list too. __________________ - Oh God! They're all over the place! CRASH DIVE!!! - Ehm... we can't honey. We're in the car right now. - What?... er right... Doesn't matter! We'll give it a try anyway!

02-12-10, 04:36 AM	#13
elanaiba Ace of the Deep Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Bucharest, Romania Posts: 1,058 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 3	In SH5, it would be even much more important that REAL distances are taken into consideration. As ships and convoys can reroute dynamically, distances are an important factor. Of course, there are ways around that, and there's a number of problems associated with spherical worlds. One being that you have to take the time to implement it and make AI work with it. SH3, SH4, SH5, all have ships going down "under the horizon" to make up for the earth curvature. __________________ With strength I burn...

02-10-10, 06:58 AM	#14
Gunnodayak Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Crappy game, it will be the weakest of the series in most of the respects, except the graphics. And the eye candy graphics upgrade through the years took place in ALL video game applications, so that is not a "heroic" act for this so-called Silent Hunter 5, which has almost nothing to do with the concept of naval or sub simulation. As a conclusion, the series has took its course down, with SH5 at its lowest peak. Ubisoft and the romanian developers team should be really ashamed of themselves. But of course, they've got no shame, only the burning desire to fool the market and to make money profit. I hope they won't. At least, not from me.