Soldier balks at deploying; says Obama isn’t president

[CaptainHaplo]

Back to the original subject - I have an issue with the soldier in two regards.

As an officer, had he had issues with, what is until proven otherwise, the current president - he should have resigned immediately.

Second - notice he only makes this refusal upon being ordered to deploy. Thus, like those that argued that George W Bush was appointed instead of elected initially and tried to use that arguement after recieving similiar orders, I must be consistent in my criticism and tell him that his credibility for this being a true issue is bullocks.

He may have an arguement - but his timing and handling of it remove any legitimacy to his personal claim that he cannot be legally deployed.

[Max2147]

Anyways, the whole issue of where Obama was born is moot, since he was born to an American parent. That means he had American citizenship from birth. The Constitution, nor other American law, specifies that a person must be born in the United States to be a natural born citizen. In fact, one of the few mentions of the term in early American law explicitly grants natural born citizenship to chilrden born overseas to American parents.

There is a legal method for the Senate to challenge the President's eligibilty on any grounds, including citizenship. If there were any legitimate doubts about Obama's citizenship, I have a feeling the GOP would have used those methods by now, but they haven't. In fact, the Senate (and the House) unanimously certified Obama as the winner of the election.

Anyways, if you say that Obama can't be a natural born citizen if he was born outside the US, then you'd have had to disqualify McCain as well. His parents were both Americans living in the Panama Canal Zone (US territory), but the hospital where he was born was outside the Canal Zone. It was a Navy hospital, but US-owned buildings overseas are explicitly NOT American territory unless they're part of an Embassy, which that hospital was not. So technically McCain was born in Panama.

Do I think that John McCain is a natural born citizen of the United States? Yes, even though he wasn't born in the United States. Obama, through is American mother, is also a natural born citizen, regardless of where he was born.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by August

Well Max the vast majority of Republicans don't question Obamas authority either, but since you ask, IIRC there were several servicemen who refused to serve during Bush's tenure as President citing stolen elections and illegal wars as reasons for refusing to do their duty.

I had no more sympathy for them than I do for this latest shirker. Every one of them ought to be put in front of a firing squad.

Thanks for the info, I was not aware of that. I also don't have any sympathy for them.

I should, however, differentiate between soldiers who shirk their duty when they are ordered into combat zones and soldiers who leave the military out of principle. I don't have any problems with soldiers who leave the military because they feel that they would be forced to carry out actions that are against their personal beliefs, regardless of who the President is. I see that as the same as a politician who resigns because they don't agree with a policy. However, there's no excuse for staying in our all-volunteer military and refusing to carry out orders because of your political leanings.

Then if you feel comfortable in all this why doesn't POTUS release all his records? Potus isn't comfortable I guess.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

Why don't Mr. Obama's supporters just do the sane thing and prove all the tin-hat folks wrong by asking Mr. Obama to release the documents, iso spending so much money to suppress said documents. Sounds like a simple solution, no?

He has. As the spokeswoman at the Hawaii Department of Health said, the document Obama released is "a valid Hawaii birth certificate." If a Hawaiian asks for a copy of their birth certificate, that's what they get.

But as mookie has said in this thread, nothing will ever be enough to satisfy the conspiracy theorists.

[Buddahaid]

Simple, the name on the birth certificate is Susan and whatever.

Buddahaid

Originally Posted by Max2147

He has. As the spokeswoman at the Hawaii Department of Health said, the document Obama released is "a valid Hawaii birth certificate." If a Hawaiian asks for a copy of their birth certificate, that's what they get.

But as mookie has said in this thread, nothing will ever be enough to satisfy the conspiracy theorists.

My understanding is that the keeper of records said it was an' accurate representation' of his Certificate of Live birth. Parsing the truth me thinks.

Release the original documents, and be done with it, no?

[CaptainHaplo]

Max - actually your wrong.

Any NAVAL hospital is considered US Government Property - thus is soveriegn US Soil. To be considered a "NATURAL BORN CITIZEN" then one must have been born on sovereign US Soil. This is why certain islanders have taken to boats, thrown themselves overboard when a coast guard cutter approaches - to be fished out of the water. The stress in very late term pregnancies of such an ordeal causes the birth of the child - which has occured more than once on the deck of a soveriegn US ship. Since the ship is property and part of the military arm, it is considered US "Soil", so the child is automatically a citizen, and the parent or parents end up staying to care for the child, since it cannot be deported.

The only exception to this "natural born" clause is that if one parent is a member of the military, and is deployed outside of the US, and the child is born to them in the deployed location, the child is considered natural born.
In this case - John McCain is doubly covered in that he was born where he was due to his family being deployed on US military duty.

I highly doubt that Barak's mother was a deployed member of the military if he was born outside US soil.

Allow me to give one further example. If you have a sister who is pregnant - and she decides to go with her husband/significant other to France on holiday - and has the baby early, in france - that child is NOT a "NATURAL BORN" citizen. They can be given citizen ship status, but the are not legally termed natural born. This is a big distinction, as the legal requirements for running are quite clear.

Lastly - I say it doesn't matter because in 3 years it will all come out that it was a mistake and the decision will be made to let him continue in office - thus setting the precedent for AH-Nald to run.....

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by CastleBravo

My understanding is that the keeper of records said it was an' accurate representation' of his Certificate of Live birth. Parsing the truth me thinks.

Release the original documents, and be done with it, no?

The part I quoted was the verbatim quote from the Hawaii Department of Health's spokesperson. She also said that she got an identical form when she requested a copy of her own birth certificate.

[GoldenRivet]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

So these sooper sekret agents of a wealthy Saudi prince broke into the library in Hawaii, planted the doctored microfiche, paid off Harvard, the Illinois State Bar, all of the election officals, blahblahblahblah.....

thats not what i said - not exactly.

Just open your eyes and look thats all...

get out a big white board, map out and follow the money chain, you would be surprised.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Max - actually your wrong.

Any NAVAL hospital is considered US Government Property - thus is soveriegn US Soil. To be considered a "NATURAL BORN CITIZEN" then one must have been born on sovereign US Soil. This is why certain islanders have taken to boats, thrown themselves overboard when a coast guard cutter approaches - to be fished out of the water. The stress in very late term pregnancies of such an ordeal causes the birth of the child - which has occured more than once on the deck of a soveriegn US ship. Since the ship is property and part of the military arm, it is considered US "Soil", so the child is automatically a citizen, and the parent or parents end up staying to care for the child, since it cannot be deported.

The only exception to this "natural born" clause is that if one parent is a member of the military, and is deployed outside of the US, and the child is born to them in the deployed location, the child is considered natural born.
In this case - John McCain is doubly covered in that he was born where he was due to his family being deployed on US military duty.

I highly doubt that Barak's mother was a deployed member of the military if he was born outside US soil.

Allow me to give one further example. If you have a sister who is pregnant - and she decides to go with her husband/significant other to France on holiday - and has the baby early, in france - that child is NOT a "NATURAL BORN" citizen. They can be given citizen ship status, but the are not legally termed natural born. This is a big distinction, as the legal requirements for running are quite clear.

Lastly - I say it doesn't matter because in 3 years it will all come out that it was a mistake and the decision will be made to let him continue in office - thus setting the precedent for AH-Nald to run.....

Quoting from a Foreign Affairs Manual: "Despite widespread popular belief, U.S. military installations abroad and U.S. diplomatic facilities are not part of the United States within the meaning of the 14th Amendment. A child born on the premises of such a facility is not subject to U.S. jurisdiction and does not acquire U.S. citizenship by reason of birth."

The specific exception for military personnel has only been introduced recently. As a matter of fact, Obama co-sponsored the bill.

Again, I 100% believe that McCain is a natural born citizen of the United States, since he got his citizenship by birth. My point is that the entire issue is bogus, since nobody debates the citizenship of Obama's mother, or the fact that he was an American citizen by birth as well.

This whole equation of natural born citizen with being born in the US is bogus, since the term was never defined in the Constitution, and has never been definitively defined as such in American law or case law.

[Max2147]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

thats not what i said - not exactly.

Just open your eyes and look thats all...

get out a big white board, map out and follow the money chain, you would be surprised.

Again, which President are you talking about?

Take any President in the last 100 years, map out their money trail, and I'm sure you'd be able to connect them all to some unsavory figures. You could probably connect FDR to Hitler, Ike to Stalin, JFK to Castro, and so on. It doesn't mean that FDR was a Nazi, Ike was a Commie, or that JFK had an awesome beard. In fact, it doesn't mean anything, just like Obama's money chain doesn't prove that he's some puppet of corrupt Saudi princes who are plotting to turn the US over to Osama Bin Laden.

Originally Posted by Max2147

The part I quoted was the verbatim quote from the Hawaii Department of Health's spokesperson. She also said that she got an identical form when she requested a copy of her own birth certificate.

Then why is Mr. Obama fighting the release of documents in court? Confusing, ain't it?

[GoldenRivet]

there has always been political and monetary connections with the saudis.

but in this case, we have a saudi prince saying "we want Obama in the white house... pay whatever price necessary to put him there" and then making it so.

i wonder how much DIRECT cash towards campaign finance came from nations that are our enemies.

it is the most masterful infiltration of American government in history.

want to hurt someone - hit em in the wallet...

Mission objective one of the Saudi Agent in the white house - destroy the economy.

Mission objective one - accomplished

[UnderseaLcpl]

Honestly, I don't understand this continued insistence that Obama is not a U.S. citizen. Is it possible? Maybe. Is it even remotely probable? No.

Closet communists though they may be, I seriously doubt that the Democratic Party would, at any level, knowingly endorse a non-US citizen because he was being bankrolled by the Saudis or OPEC or anybody else for that matter. I mean, why even bother? It would be a ludicrously dangerous move in the political sense, and it isn't as if there's a shortage of muslim orators and politicians with anti-American agendas who were actually born in the U.S. What on God's green earth could the Dems possibly have to gain from installing such a man in office?
I think this whole thing is exactly what it appears to be, and nothing more. Obama may be a socialist weasel, but he's not part of some vast conspiracy to.....whatever.......

Meanwhile, back at the ranch, I'm going to point out the truly outrageous thing here; A U.S. military officer shirking his duty in time of war, displaying cowardice, and undermining the Commander-in-Chief and the entire chain of command. Last time I checked, that was treason, and it doesn't matter if he thinks the CinC is legitimate or not. This man has had plenty of time to resign his commission and seek administrative seperation, which he evidently did not.

I think cases like this are a sad commentary on the state of the U.S. military in general. Imo, it is high time we reformed the military's manpower base and recruiting doctrine into something more befitting a professional soldiery. Ours can hardly be an armed force characterized by "consummate professionalism" when it is comprised in part of ASVAB waivers, criminal background waivers, would-be community college alumni, and politicians in uniform.

The U.S. military is an all-volunteer force, and because of that it is more professional and competent than conscription-based militaries, but we need to take the next logical step and create an all-professional force.
We do not need more troops so much as we need troops who are better qualified and equipped for modern high and low-intensity theatres of operation. We have spent too much time already fighting the last war with the last army. The wars of the present and the future demand more specialized and qualified combat professionals. Our dogmatic insistence upon attempting to match the enemy man for man may work sometimes, but it is a costly endeavour in terms of lives on both sides. The chicken**** major in the OP may not concern some people, but that jackass could easily get a whole platoon killed or cause a civilian massacre because he is a coward. Men and women like him should never even be given the opportunity to serve.

My feeling is that the U.S. military needs much stricter entry requirements and training, and a pay-scale befitting those requirements. Other incentives, like money for college, are fine so long as the beneficiaries understand that they are in a system where they are soldiers first and students second. Above all, they need to understand that they are sworn to uphold and defend the Constitution of the United States even at the cost of their lives, and they need to be willing to accept that responsibility at all times. Of course, it is difficult to ascertain the motives of any person, whatever they may swear to, hence the stricter training requirements, which serve to dissuade the half-hearted and the opportunistic.

Whatever you may think of the legitimacy of Obama's presidency, this particular major does not have a case in any circumstance, nor do many like him. War is an ugly business to be sure, but that does not excuse a soldier from his obligation to conduct himself properly when duty requires it.