Suicidal Chinese Man Pushed Over Edge

[porphy]

Originally Posted by August

Through early morning fog I see
visions of the things to be
the pains that are withheld for me
I realize and I can see...

[chorus]:
That suicide is painless
It brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.

I try to find a way to make
all our little joys relate
without that ever-present hate
but now I know that it's too late, and...

[Chorus]

The game of life is hard to play
I'm gonna lose it anyway
The losing card I'll someday lay
so this is all I have to say.

[Chorus]

The only way to win is cheat
And lay it down before I'm beat
and to another give my seat
for that's the only painless feat.

[Chorus]

MASH
The sword of time will pierce our skins
It doesn't hurt when it begins
But as it works its way on in
The pain grows stronger...watch it grin, but...

[Chorus]

A brave man once requested me
to answer questions that are key
'is it to be or not to be'
and I replied 'oh why ask me?'

'Cause suicide is painless
it brings on many changes
and I can take or leave it if I please.
...and you can do the same thing if you choose.


10 points to anyone under 30 who knows what movie this is from without googling it...

I know, but I'm older than 30, so no points to me...

[Letum]

I'll take those 10 points.
Not a bad film.
I keep meaning to buy a boxset of the series'.

[Jimbuna]

It might have been a teensy weensy bit harder if you had edited your original post morw carefully.....a lot of people have eyes like a hawk here and their radar finely tuned

[Aramike]

You seem unwilling to actually see it from the point of someone suicidal. I totally agree that suicide is creating a option where you see no other. But how is that selfish? If you truly think and is convinced that your own death is the only way out of a situation or solving it, how is that selfish from that persons perspective? There are no other ways, for this person, so you can't choose. If you can't choose, how are you selfish or getting benefits out of it? If you mean emotional benefits from contemplating or talking about suicide, yes some sorts of benefits can probably be shown, but then why are people then really killing themselves? That means the end of any benefits and anything that can be called selfish.

It IS selfish when someone is attempting to solve THEIR problems and/or acting in a manner they believe is their self-interest.

You don't see death as a benefit. From the suicidal individual's perspective, death is a benefit unto itself, as I've pointed out. To imply there is no choice makes no sense, as living is the clear alternative. Just because one doesn't LIKE a choice doesn't mean there isn't one.

In fact, I would suggest that I'm looking at it from the suicidal person's perspective and you're looking at it from a survivor's point of view.

Suicide, in MOST cases, in the sense we are talking about, is purely a selfish act. One is doing what one believes to be in one's best interest, which is the definition of selfish.

PS: Bear in mind that there is more to selfishness than its negative connotation implies.

[Biggles]

Well, he pushed him to the side where the big pillow lay, so I guess he just tried to save his life (although maybe against the buggers will) and not to do him any harm. I've seen a video of the event now, and the guy hit a part of the bridge before landing safely, I guess that's where he got his wounds.

[porphy]

It IS selfish when someone is attempting to solve THEIR problems and/or acting in a manner they believe is their self-interest

.

So if instead deciding to live on and solve their problem, would that also be selfish and the verification of self-interest as well? According to that description it would. It seems to be on the verge of the rather empty view that whatever a person do, it can be reduced to some kind of self-interest and selfish behaviour. If not, how is the two options, live or die, differentiated by referring to "solving their problems" and acting from what "is their self-interest"? And how is other ways of solving their problems not purely selfish behaviour in itself?

You don't see death as a benefit. From the suicidal individual's perspective, death is a benefit unto itself, as I've pointed out.

I think you get me wrong here. If something is beneficial it means you get something out of it, a profit, a good feeling or better treatment. When you are dead you wont get anything, that is more or less a fact. That is why I did agree earlier that it might be beneficial to a person to talk about suicide or think about it. That might lead to something beneficial for that person in his life. But when you kill yourself, this is a kind of action that puts an end to everything, for you. So claiming that a suicide is in itself selfish, or that death is beneficial unto itself for a suicidal person, seems to me like extending concepts outside their proper use. A person doing some action that is selfish, must somehow be able to be the beneficiary of his doing, especially if it is supposed to be selfish in any clear way. But when you are dead you can't, that is one reason why the actual suicide can't be an selfish act in itself.
If death really was beneficial unto itself for a person, we would see people killing themselves in order to die, literally. Death as beneficial unto itself is not a very good shorthand for everything and all situations where suicides take place. Saying and meaning that would once again result in neglecting all the different reasons and situations that really can cause and do cause suicides. This way of only concentrating on a simplified formula of people seeing death as beneficial unto itself and suicide as selfish in itself is, as I said the easy way, it keeps any complications at bay in favour of catch phrases and a tendency to streamline a view of something quite complicated.
My goal in discussing the language of suicide is not to find the proper definition or showing one that doesn't hold up, but to open up the view of suicide to a somewhat more open minded and useful response, when someone actually encounters or reads about suicidal persons. Skybird for example contributed with some real experience that didn't fit the concept of selfishness. Unfortunately you don't seem to find that point of the discussion very worthwhile, but in this case keep the blinders on.

To imply there is no choice makes no sense, as living is the clear alternative. Just because one doesn't LIKE a choice doesn't mean there isn't one.

I think there is a bit more to it than not liking the choice to keep living. We are not discussing preference and choice of flavours. Humans have, as most animals, an instinct to survive and stay clear of harm and death. That implies that pretty forceful circumstances are needed to bring one to go through with suicide. By saying there is no choice, I of course mean there is no other option that is deemed a solution or escape for that person. But if you tell them there is, they would probably respond that you don't get it, that you don't see the obvious. Living on is not a viable option, and that can in many circumstances be the same as no other option to choose. That is a clash of perspectives. What would you do about that clash, apart from denying it? People that have been in contact with severe cases of suicidal persons, that still communicates, will tell you that this is what it comes to. Insisting on the option to live on is in many of these cases not a good strategy. Perhaps one could say that the difficult task is to make the person to find that option viable or in view again, on his own, but you can't simply point it out.

In fact, I would suggest that I'm looking at it from the suicidal person's perspective and you're looking at it from a survivor's point of view.

Well, what about the alternative that both of us have something relevant to say about the suicidal persons perspective and the survivors view? That would still mean that far from all suicides are selfish behaviour in itself, and that quite a few cases will probably not conform to your view about death as a benefit unto itself for a suicidal person.

Suicide, in MOST cases, in the sense we are talking about, is purely a selfish act. One is doing what one believes to be in one's best interest, which is the definition of selfish.

I have already pointed out that this is quite wide, almost empty, definition when applied to real cases. I can't really see why you need to keep up the idea of "purely selfish acts" when anyone taking five minutes to read about suicides will find it a very complex phenomenon, rather than one which can be quickly summarized or reduced to as in itself selfish behaviour. Of course you are right if the sense of suicide we are talking about is only the the ones that fit your definition, but then the whole thing is quite pointless.
You seem to rely on the words quite a bit, in order to keep one view of suicide intact. I also like words, but in this case I'm not using them to fight of a complex reality. Rather the opposite, I have repeatedly said that my view is that selfishness is not a good description to fully account for suicide as it cover up more than it explains.

PS: Bear in mind that there is more to selfishness than its negative connotation implies.

True, trying to use selfish without the negative connotation or the idea of experienced benefits is not uncommon. Richard Dawkins did that in the book "The Selfish Gene", with some very mixed results in my view. I'm not sure he himself could clearly explain what he means on some of the pages in that book.

Oh dear, now I have spent a lot of time this evening to write here again. Will need to cook some food and do the evening excersise. Take care.

porphy

[Aramike]

Oh Lord, he we go ... the old line-by-line quote game. You should really relax, though - as the "tone" of your posts is clearly unneccessary.

And, just so you know, I'm not trying to talk someone down off the edge here, so don't expect my perspectives to be PC in any way.

So if instead deciding to live on and solve their problem, would that also be selfish and the verification of self-interest as well?

No, because living is the default (the state the one is at).

Personally I believe almost everything everyone does is for selfish reasons. You should attempt to avoid the stigma of the word and stick to its literal definition.

I think you get me wrong here. If something is beneficial it means you get something out of it, a profit, a good feeling or better treatment.

All "beneficial" means is a favorable result. What is "favorable" is quite subjective and depends on one's perspective.

But when you are dead you can't, that is one reason why the actual suicide can't be an selfish act in itself.

That's silly. Any action can be selfish, considering that the ACTUAL definition of selfish is: "concerned chiefly with oneself." The result of the act has no bearing upon the motivation of the act itself.

Skybird for example contributed with some real experience that didn't fit the concept of selfishness. Unfortunately you don't seem to find that point of the discussion very worthwhile, but in this case keep the blinders on.

You need to settle down and stop getting so riled up over this. I have a different point of view than you do. Deal with it.

In any case, I've acknowledged several posts back that NOT all suicides are selfish and as such have no disagreement with the aforementioned examples. Why the HELL should I have to address something I agree with?

I think there is a bit more to it than not liking the choice to keep living. We are not discussing preference and choice of flavours. Humans have, as most animals, an instinct to survive and stay clear of harm and death. That implies that pretty forceful circumstances are needed to bring one to go through with suicide. By saying there is no choice, I of course mean there is no other option that is deemed a solution or escape for that person. But if you tell them there is, they would probably respond that you don't get it, that you don't see the obvious. Living on is not a viable option, and that can in many circumstances be the same as no other option to choose. That is a clash of perspectives. What would you do about that clash, apart from denying it? People that have been in contact with severe cases of suicidal persons, that still communicates, will tell you that this is what it comes to. Insisting on the option to live on is in many of these cases not a good strategy. Perhaps one could say that the difficult task is to make the person to find that option viable or in view again, on his own, but you can't simply point it out.

Living on is almost ALWAYS a viable option. Just because that life may not suit one's preferences or comforts, death doesn't become the default state. There are indeed exceptions - but that's what they are.

Well, what about the alternative that both of us have something relevant to say about the suicidal persons perspective and the survivors view? That would still mean that far from all suicides are selfish behaviour in itself, and that quite a few cases will probably not conform to your view about death as a benefit unto itself for a suicidal person.

I've already said that not all suicides are selfish? Must you build a straw man?

I have already pointed out that this is quite wide, almost empty, definition when applied to real cases. I can't really see why you need to keep up the idea of "purely selfish acts" when anyone taking five minutes to read about suicides will find it a very complex phenomenon, rather than one which can be quickly summarized or reduced to as in itself selfish behaviour.

Seriously, look up the definition of selfish.

Indeed, there are ALWAYS deeper complexities. However, those do not supercede the more basic perspectives. Rather, they expand upon them. I'm not interested in discussing the layers of complexity in the human mind that decides upon self-destruction. Frankly, it's just not all that interesting to me.

However, I have found (through experience, mind you) that nearly all suicides share a strong component of selfishness. Whether or not that selfishness is justifiable, is irrelevent.

When I make a point, I try to do it without emotional qualification - you should try this. In other words, when I say that most suicides are selfish, it means just that - most suicides are selfish. That doesn't preclude them being justifiable, or having other influences present. Nor does it preclude them from being stupid, senseless acts ... especially in the case of the idiot "attempting" to do so in public from 26' up.

What you're doing is attempting to alter the definition of words to suit your argument. "Selfish" has nothing to do with "beneficial", as you said. Likewise, "beneficial" is not an objective term - a favorable result depends on perspective.

[August]

Originally Posted by jimbuna

It might have been a teensy weensy bit harder if you had edited your original post morw carefully.....a lot of people have eyes like a hawk here and their radar finely tuned

Wiseass!

You trapped me John

[porphy]

Oh Lord, he we go ... the old line-by-line quote game. You should really relax, though - as the "tone" of your posts is clearly unneccessary.

And, just so you know, I'm not trying to talk someone down off the edge here, so don't expect my perspectives to be PC in any way.

No, because living is the default (the state the one is at).

Personally I believe almost everything everyone does is for selfish reasons. You should attempt to avoid the stigma of the word and stick to its literal definition.

All "beneficial" means is a favorable result. What is "favorable" is quite subjective and depends on one's perspective.

I'm quite relaxed, maybe a bit insistent... you can deal with that as well I hope. Being insistent is also why I used the line by line quotes. My lines make up the whole of your post. So it's not much of the game where one pick and choose pieces of the writing as it suits. Even if it might look a bit like clashing at first sight, it is not how I use it .

Selfish is a word that carries a lot of stigma as you say. If you want to use the word, that is something that has to be taken in consideration. Talking about "sickly selfishness", "nothing more than selfish behaviour" or "merely selfish behaviour" can easily be read as quite strong judgements in connection to suicide. Also how is one supposed to know which meaning you use, as all of them are in the lexicon? In my view you could have done a better job with explaining how this was meant, rather than restating the words and their meanings when people obviously read it in another way than your intention was.

That said, I still don't agree with your use of selfish and beneficial when it comes to suicide. You seemed to want make a special point what suicide is when using these words. But it turns out that you mean nothing special at all in this context, compared to other actions and motives. This is, as far as I can see, because you say that you think almost everything that people do, is mostly motivated by selfish reasons as well. And what is beneficial for someone is what a person favour as the result of any action.

This view on selfishness as a general motivation for action have been discussed to great extent, and I take it that you are well aware of the long standing criticism of this view. At least no one I have ever read on the subject find the literal definitions of the words in a lexicon to be a satisfying way to conclude this question, so I can't see it will do any better in connection to suicide. This is unless you wanted to make some kind of grammatical point about motives and action in connection to suicide. This is a well known method; what something is, is what reasonably can be said about it. Lexicons do give a good hint about what can be said in clear and reasonable way, but they are not the final arbiter, but a starting point for such investigations.

That's silly. Any action can be selfish, considering that the ACTUAL definition of selfish is: "concerned chiefly with oneself." The result of the act has no bearing upon the motivation of the act itself.

What an act is, is not only decided by the motivation for it, but also by the results. A selfish act is not decided only by my motive to act being in accord with the general definition of selfish. The results of the act might mean that it fails being selfish in some respect, especially if the results of the act bar me from what I seek. Even with the most general definition of being concerned chiefly with oneself, nothing will survive to see the results of this action in question. So, I still find it a bit forced to conclude that the motivation for the act decides it fully. Furthermore that is not what you said originally, which was that suicide is in itself selfish behaviour, which at the first impressions sounds as if it is not even decided by the motivation, but somehow in itself. Now it is more clear what you mean, namely that almost all actions have selfish motivation, therefore suicide as action naturally falls within the same category.

You need to settle down and stop getting so riled up over this. I have a different point of view than you do. Deal with it.

In any case, I've acknowledged several posts back that NOT all suicides are selfish and as such have no disagreement with the aforementioned examples. Why the HELL should I have to address something I agree with?

Living on is almost ALWAYS a viable option. Just because that life may not suit one's preferences or comforts, death doesn't become the default state. There are indeed exceptions - but that's what they are.I've already said that not all suicides are selfish? Must you build a straw man?Seriously, look up the definition of selfish.

I obviously missed that acknowledged agreement. In fact I could hardly find it even now. I take it that you mean where you say that almost all suicides are selfish except for immediate actions for the best interest of others. That fits well with the definition of selfish, but I think my point was that real life examples of suicidal behaviour and reasoning should make one a bit sceptical about if this is the best way to give general descriptions of suicide, as its merits mostly seem to be that it fits with the most general definitions of actions as selfish and that death can be viewed as a beneficial result. I still can't see you did acknowledge that.

Indeed, there are ALWAYS deeper complexities. However, those do not supercede the more basic perspectives. Rather, they expand upon them. I'm not interested in discussing the layers of complexity in the human mind that decides upon self-destruction. Frankly, it's just not all that interesting to me.

Fine, in that case you could perhaps say that. How should anyone figure out that you are not all interested in the complexities concerning suicide, when starting a thread about a case of suicidal behaviour and public reactions by a man that said that the jumper was selfish, and then yourself later state that mostly all suicides are sickly selfish?

However, I have found (through experience, mind you) that nearly all suicides share a strong component of selfishness. Whether or not that selfishness is justifiable, is irrelevent.

When I make a point, I try to do it without emotional qualification - you should try this. In other words, when I say that most suicides are selfish, it means just that - most suicides are selfish. That doesn't preclude them being justifiable, or having other influences present. Nor does it preclude them from being stupid, senseless acts ... especially in the case of the idiot "attempting" to do so in public from 26' up.

What you're doing is attempting to alter the definition of words to suit your argument. "Selfish" has nothing to do with "beneficial", as you said. Likewise, "beneficial" is not an objective term - a favorable result depends on perspective.

I will be a bit blunt here: what experience have made you able to find evidence for claiming that nearly all suicides share a strong component of selfishness? I don't question that this is your experience of suicide, or ask for details about things that can be highly private or covered by professional confidentiality. But I'm more curious of the fact that it would be so vast as to claim something like that. Also, if selfishness is a shared strong component in suicide, what are the other components, in your experience?

Please, don't say I'm attempting to doctoring definitions for my own point of view. That is one of the most misused arguments, and it does not fit the bill here. What I'm trying to do, in part, is to see if the words, as defined, really can be used in a responsible way in such general ways, without risking distortion and covering up the nature of real life situations, with language. That might not be your interest, but it doesn't really put me in the game of changing definitions.

Your last try at showing the only right use of the terms are not fully correct. Selfish can indeed have to do with what is beneficial. If you look up both those words, you will find that they also can mean selfish = doing something for your own advantage, with disregard for others, and beneficial = getting a favourable result, as in getting an advantage. I think the connection is quite clear in that case. And if you read your own postings with that in mind you can see how easily you can be read as meaning just that. And I'm still not sure you can stay completely clear from the other meanings of those words, and still say something particular about acts of suicide which differentiate them from other acts.

Sure, emotional qualifications can get in the way when making a point, but sometimes emotions or values are important for how people look at each other and treat each other. Especially when using words like selfish in connection to suicide, which both do have a widespread and common meaning which indeed is connected to strong values and emotions. I think you can see why I find it worthwhile to be a bit (perhaps too) insistent on such occasions to see exactly what views I'm dealing with.

Ok, that's it! Feel free to answer to anything of this if you want to. But I think we can conclude that we now do know a bit more about your view and mine on the subject, and that we probably will not agree fully on this, or make the other guy convert. That might be good enough.

porphy

[Aramike]

Selfish is a word that carries a lot of stigma as you say. If you want to use the word, that is something that has to be taken in consideration. Talking about "sickly selfishness", "nothing more than selfish behaviour" or "merely selfish behaviour" can easily be read as quite strong judgements in connection to suicide. Also how is one supposed to know which meaning you use, as all of them are in the lexicon? In my view you could have done a better job with explaining how this was meant, rather than restating the words and their meanings when people obviously read it in another way than your intention was.

What do you mean, how is one supposed to understand what "meaning" I use? I use the exact same meaning as you do. I just don't attach a positive or negative connotation to it.

Although, by adding certain verbiage I clearly imply that most suicides are negatively selfish - which I still do believe. However, an important word of note is "most".

What an act is, is not only decided by the motivation for it, but also by the results.

That is a big negative, buddy. For instance, walking is walking despite whether or not one gets anywhere. If I throw a ball, I throw a ball regardless of the result of the throw.

So, I still find it a bit forced to conclude that the motivation for the act decides it fully.

I agree - you shouldn't conclude that. The motivation PLUS the act defines the entirety of said act. For instance, stating that one throws a ball to a friend because we were playing catch defines the act of throwing the ball. Whether or not the throw was caught, or even was close to the friend (the result) is irrelevent.

I obviously missed that acknowledged agreement. In fact I could hardly find it even now. I take it that you mean where you say that almost all suicides are selfish except for immediate actions for the best interest of others. That fits well with the definition of selfish, but I think my point was that real life examples of suicidal behaviour and reasoning should make one a bit sceptical about if this is the best way to give general descriptions of suicide, as its merits mostly seem to be that it fits with the most general definitions of actions as selfish and that death can be viewed as a beneficial result. I still can't see you did acknowledge that.

I'm referring to the majority of suicides, which I anecdotally find to be foolishly selfish. No, I do not have statistics on this (and I doubt you have any refutting it) ... but just from my experience the vast majority of suicides occur in people experiencing temporary problems, such as financial ills, intense embarrassment at some public revelation, general "I'd rather die than face tomorrow", etc.

For instance, consider the tragic story of the teenage girl who recently killed herself due to a rival's mother creating a fake MySpace profile and using it to manipulate the "victim". How is, "OMG somebody else thinks I'm total garbage so I'll kill myself" anything BUT selfish? This girl took a false impression of herself and was so distressed by how she felt HER perception was, that she'd rather die than face it. This is a sad, needless case, but it does display a certain sick selfishness.

This girl cared so much about what the perception of her was that she chose to die rather than face it.

Now, the next argument would be whether or not facing it would have been selfish. Sure, but not in the same sense, as waking up the next day and dealing with your circumstances is the default. Suicide is not.

Fine, in that case you could perhaps say that. How should anyone figure out that you are not all interested in the complexities concerning suicide, when starting a thread about a case of suicidal behaviour and public reactions by a man that said that the jumper was selfish, and then yourself later state that mostly all suicides are sickly selfish?

The purpose of the thread was discussion of the moral authority of the "pusher", as well as the moral authority of the "jumper" who clearly ignored the threat he posed to the general public. Imagine if an ambulance was stuck in the traffic he caused?

I really had no intention of delving into the complexities of the suicidal mind, but I'm not suprised it happened, considering the complexities of this particular discussion forum.

I will be a bit blunt here: what experience have made you able to find evidence for claiming that nearly all suicides share a strong component of selfishness?

Personal tragedy plus anecdotal. I've seen this issue up close, as well as have read about MANY suicides in the media over the years. The common denominator to ALL is that the "victim" finds suicide to be a solution to a particular problem centered around themselves.

Do you have any evidence that this is untrue?

I don't question that this is your experience of suicide, or ask for details about things that can be highly private or covered by professional confidentiality. But I'm more curious of the fact that it would be so vast as to claim something like that. Also, if selfishness is a shared strong component in suicide, what are the other components, in your experience?

Other components would revolve around mental disillusionment, intense physical pain and/or impairment, societal ostracism, etc, etc. Ultimately, however, all of those are selfish reasons.

However, certain of those reasons are definitely understandable (such as the terminal patient killing himself to end the pain). However, in my experience, that is no where NEAR the majority of the suicides that occur. Rather, most people who kill themselves seem to do so for the purpose of sparing themselves a level of shame, which is what I call sickly selfish.

Indeed, my belief that this is the majority is anecdotal at best - I'm intellectually honest enough to admit that. However, your belief that it is not the majority is equally anecdotal, if that is indeed what you believe.

Please, don't say I'm attempting to doctoring definitions for my own point of view. That is one of the most misused arguments, and it does not fit the bill here. What I'm trying to do, in part, is to see if the words, as defined, really can be used in a responsible way in such general ways, without risking distortion and covering up the nature of real life situations, with language. That might not be your interest, but it doesn't really put me in the game of changing definitions.

I'm sorry, but that is specifically what you did. You said, "If something is beneficial it means you get something out of it, a profit, a good feeling or better treatment."

In no language is that the definition of beneficial. Sure, in some cases it FITS the definition, but you leave out the fact that the word is based upon a perception of favorability and instead substitute what YOU see as favorable as an absolute.

Your last try at showing the only right use of the terms are not fully correct. Selfish can indeed have to do with what is beneficial. If you look up both those words, you will find that they also can mean selfish = doing something for your own advantage, with disregard for others, and beneficial = getting a favourable result, as in getting an advantage. I think the connection is quite clear in that case. And if you read your own postings with that in mind you can see how easily you can be read as meaning just that. And I'm still not sure you can stay completely clear from the other meanings of those words, and still say something particular about acts of suicide which differentiate them from other acts.

The thing is that beneficial and selfish can be mutually exclusive. As such, selfishness does not neccessarily mean beneficial. Considering that we're discussing what *I* meant by the term "selfish", it would seem prudent to allow me to explain how I meant it.

Sure, emotional qualifications can get in the way when making a point, but sometimes emotions or values are important for how people look at each other and treat each other.

I couldn't agree with you more, but...

Especially when using words like selfish in connection to suicide, which both do have a widespread and common meaning which indeed is connected to strong values and emotions. I think you can see why I find it worthwhile to be a bit (perhaps too) insistent on such occasions to see exactly what views I'm dealing with.

...one must first attempt to understand an argument before countering it. We face a situation where there really aren't any statistics, and right or wrong, to back either of us up. Therefore we are left with anecdotal evidence in support of what we believe.

I agree with you that there are some people who commit suicide for justifiably selfish reasons. My contention however, is that the majority of suicides are for reasons unjustified, and specifically relate to the subject sparing themselves shame.

My thought process is this: the teenager who would kill themself over being considered unpopular at school will likely respond far better to an intense stigma associated with killing themself than any other method. So many suicidals justify their action by the rationale of "I'll show them" that I believe many can be prevented simply by saying "you'll show them, what? That you're a selfish idiot?".

Ok, that's it! Feel free to answer to anything of this if you want to. But I think we can conclude that we now do know a bit more about your view and mine on the subject, and that we probably will not agree fully on this, or make the other guy convert. That might be good enough.

It's all good. Honestly, it's common knowledge that I love using the "quote" style of debate. Furthermore, I can get pretty intense and nasty with my arguments, although I do try to only do that in response to others (albeit, you start it I try to fire back ten times as hard). However, this isn't one of those discussions because we both believe that suicides cover the spectrum of motivations - the difference seems to lie in what we believe constitutes the majority. As neither of us can prove it one way or another, there's no point in being overly contentious regarding the subject.

[porphy]

What do you mean, how is one supposed to understand what "meaning" I use? I use the exact same meaning as you do. I just don't attach a positive or negative connotation to it.

Although, by adding certain verbiage I clearly imply that most suicides are negatively selfish - which I still do believe. However, an important word of note is "most".

Ok, I'll rephrase that a bit. How is one supposed to be clear about that you do not attach any positive or negative connotations to the word selfish? What I meant with different "meanings", is simply that many dictionaries will also show, apart from a definition, examples of using a word in different situations, and in the case with selfish, indeed with such implied negative connotations. On many occasions you don't say "selfish" unless you imply something negative. That is, there are typical occasions where you do use the word in a way that imply something negative. Looking up the definition of the word will not tell me if you do attach connotations to it or not. Everyone knows that selfish often has strong connotations, so I think one has to be quite clear from the start if you specifically do not imply any of that, but only want to keep to its denotation and later put in other words that say if the selfish act was negative or not. That is, in my view, the responsible way of using the word "selfish" when discussing suicide.

That is a big negative, buddy. For instance, walking is walking despite whether or not one gets anywhere. If I throw a ball, I throw a ball regardless of the result of the throw.

I agree - you shouldn't conclude that. The motivation PLUS the act defines the entirety of said act. For instance, stating that one throws a ball to a friend because we were playing catch defines the act of throwing the ball. Whether or not the throw was caught, or even was close to the friend (the result) is irrelevent.

Yes, I can see the point of that view. But I still find this a quite difficult thing. Could I not also say that throwing a ball or walking will still be what it is, regardless of the motivation for the act? There also are situations where the question is, did he really walk or make a throw? Maybe he was better described as running or dropping the ball? Results of the act seem to enter here in order to justify it as such an act, even when the motivation is clear. Also motivation, as I understand it, is a persons reason to act in a specific way, but your motivation for action is not fulfilled only by doing this act, but also by its results, failed or not.
I'm not really sure what this means in connection to suicide, but my feeling is that saying it is mostly a selfish act is shortcuting itself, as the results of the very act precludes the suicadal person to see if the act really accomplishes what he wanted, as being chiefly concerned with himself. I agree that a suicidal person when talking or thinking about a situation often is selfish in the way you mean, the question is if this really makes the act in itself selfish.

I'm referring to the majority of suicides, which I anecdotally find to be foolishly selfish. No, I do not have statistics on this (and I doubt you have any refutting it) ... but just from my experience the vast majority of suicides occur in people experiencing temporary problems, such as financial ills, intense embarrassment at some public revelation, general "I'd rather die than face tomorrow", etc.

For instance, consider the tragic story of the teenage girl who recently killed herself due to a rival's mother creating a fake MySpace profile and using it to manipulate the "victim". How is, "OMG somebody else thinks I'm total garbage so I'll kill myself" anything BUT selfish? This girl took a false impression of herself and was so distressed by how she felt HER perception was, that she'd rather die than face it. This is a sad, needless case, but it does display a certain sick selfishness.

This girl cared so much about what the perception of her was that she chose to die rather than face it.

Now, the next argument would be whether or not facing it would have been selfish. Sure, but not in the same sense, as waking up the next day and dealing with your circumstances is the default. Suicide is not.The purpose of the thread was discussion of the moral authority of the "pusher", as well as the moral authority of the "jumper" who clearly ignored the threat he posed to the general public. Imagine if an ambulance was stuck in the traffic he caused?

I really had no intention of delving into the complexities of the suicidal mind, but I'm not suprised it happened, considering the complexities of this particular discussion forum.Personal tragedy plus anecdotal. I've seen this issue up close, as well as have read about MANY suicides in the media over the years. The common denominator to ALL is that the "victim" finds suicide to be a solution to a particular problem centered around themselves.

Do you have any evidence that this is untrue?Other components would revolve around mental disillusionment, intense physical pain and/or impairment, societal ostracism, etc, etc. Ultimately, however, all of those are selfish reasons.

However, certain of those reasons are definitely understandable (such as the terminal patient killing himself to end the pain). However, in my experience, that is no where NEAR the majority of the suicides that occur. Rather, most people who kill themselves seem to do so for the purpose of sparing themselves a level of shame, which is what I call sickly selfish.

I agree that none of us have more than anecdotes and some personal experience to rely on. But my personal experience with a suicidal person, and what I did read about it back then, makes me draw other conclusions about how to talk about this phenomenon. I think the paragraph above with components of suicides is important in that respect.
This is what I would find crucial when discussing suicides, namely that the actual circumstances and the more specific and different reasons and circumstances for the act do get out in the open, rather than concentrating on an abstract and very general statement that most suicides are selfish acts. One could say that I don't dispute the word selfish in your sense as much as I the think it involves a tendency to downplay the real and different circumstances in favour of a found common denominator in language. That is our different interests or view showing p again I guess.

The case with the girl is instructive, as you paint her part in it as to be almost foolish. It's like she somehow made a simple mistake or some unsound reasoning, and then decided to kill herself.
Do we even now if she was already suffering from a depression? If she did that changes quite a lot. Anyone that has been dealing with a depressed persons selfishness, or know how delusions can enter the life of the depressed, will understand what might have happened here in a much better way. And those that don't have that experience could learn something useful, compared to be showed that this was yet another case of selfish suicide, as by definition, and also one which can't be justified because it is about avoiding shame.
Shame is a very strong factor in depression, so when spotting shame in a lot of cases, one should perhaps raise the awareness about how depression works rather than showing how shame fits with selfishness. That would mean making it clear that this shame and selfishness is out of the ordinary. It is something that often comes close to delusion, and delusions in this sense are not a result of shallow thinking, false impression or bad judgement on the depressed persons part. As will be very clear if you try to argue about the issue with a person suffering a severe depression. There is nothing wrong at all with their reasoning powers, rather the opposite as the thinking of the problems often go hyperactive. It's just that they draw another conclusion. That is extremely frustrating and sad at the same time. It is indeed a sickness of the self, but perhaps not a condition that is best described as selfish behaviour, although literally possible.

Indeed, my belief that this is the majority is anecdotal at best - I'm intellectually honest enough to admit that. However, your belief that it is not the majority is equally anecdotal, if that is indeed what you believe.

I'm sorry, but that is specifically what you did. You said, "If something is beneficial it means you get something out of it, a profit, a good feeling or better treatment."

In no language is that the definition of beneficial. Sure, in some cases it FITS the definition, but you leave out the fact that the word is based upon a perception of favorability and instead substitute what YOU see as favorable as an absolute.The thing is that beneficial and selfish can be mutually exclusive. As such, selfishness does not neccessarily mean beneficial. Considering that we're discussing what *I* meant by the term "selfish", it would seem prudent to allow me to explain how I meant it.

Hmm, I would think that if something fits the definition, it is a valid way to reason? You do it yourself with suicide, the definition of suicide is not selfish behaviour. (As a bit of irony dictionaries also give a definition of suicide as the ruining of one's own interests... ) Don't you think it is of importance that the dictionary show the very word advantage both in connection to both selfish Link and beneficial Link? Of course the use of the word is based on a subjective perception of what is beneficial, as an example I mentioned profit, good treatment and emotional well being. (I did not put these examples up as absolutes.) Those are very different sorts of beneficial things which certainly could be seen as an advantage for a person, but also as something a suicide actually precludes. As I understand it your way of getting through with the act of a suicide being mostly selfish, insulated from the results of the act, rely quite a bit on putting up death as an interest to itself, rather than conclude that the result of a suicide itself pose problems to this way of reasoning, both for the suicidal and for the survivors. But I agree this is by now a quite technical question and a bit moot...

I couldn't agree with you more, but......one must first attempt to understand an argument before countering it. We face a situation where there really aren't any statistics, and right or wrong, to back either of us up. Therefore we are left with anecdotal evidence in support of what we believe.

I agree with you that there are some people who commit suicide for justifiably selfish reasons. My contention however, is that the majority of suicides are for reasons unjustified, and specifically relate to the subject sparing themselves shame.

My thought process is this: the teenager who would kill themself over being considered unpopular at school will likely respond far better to an intense stigma associated with killing themself than any other method. So many suicidals justify their action by the rationale of "I'll show them" that I believe many can be prevented simply by saying "you'll show them, what? That you're a selfish idiot?".

I strongly disagree with that approach. It all relies upon the idea that you somehow can make the person to "wake up". There is very real risk that your "selfish idiot" will be directly incorporated with the persons self perception and fear of shame. Your approach probably could work before anyone is suicidal. But we already have a stigma like that in society, so what to do with people that has moved past that point already? More of the same medicine that didn't work in the first place?

It's all good. Honestly, it's common knowledge that I love using the "quote" style of debate. Furthermore, I can get pretty intense and nasty with my arguments, although I do try to only do that in response to others (albeit, you start it I try to fire back ten times as hard). However, this isn't one of those discussions because we both believe that suicides cover the spectrum of motivations - the difference seems to lie in what we believe constitutes the majority. As neither of us can prove it one way or another, there's no point in being overly contentious regarding the subject.

I like a good debate, especially when the other guy makes it difficult for me which you certainly have in the last few postings. The challenge is to both learn something about yourself and from the other person, and at the same time keep digging at things that can be quite difficult. A real open discussion should preferably have changed both sides a bit afterwards, although one must of course never admit it, like that I'm now looking up every bloody word in the dictionary.

porphy

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by August

10 points to anyone under 30 who knows what movie this is from without googling it...

What is interesting about this song is that the lyrics were written by a 14 year old.

[August]

Originally Posted by Platapus

What is interesting about this song is that the lyrics were written by a 14 year old.

Did s/he commit suicide?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by August

You trapped me John

Was that another reference to the book?

[Platapus]

Originally Posted by August

Did s/he commit suicide?

No but he earned over a million dollars while his father only earned about 70,000 for the related effort.