Supplement to SH Survey: What should Ubi do to make SH5 the best?

[Wintahs]

- Aside from the SH3 style dynamic campaign, maybe include a story mode?

-More life aboard the uboat

-WOLF PACKS!!

[donut]

Originally Posted by Steeltrap

Hi all. I've not posted for quite a while, so it's nice to be back.

I have a few comments:

Realism is king, with some caveats.

Yes we want technical realism, by which I mean the known performance of x piece of kit is reflected in the sim, as are the dates things became available etc etc. So, radar in SHV is not acceptable i.e. air search radar giving bearing when it was only ever an A-scope. That's just basic and shoody.

For every level of realism, there might be an option of choosing NOT to have it in your game. This solves the problem of "appealing to the casual gamer" that is, IMO, an excuse for "we couldn't be bothered to get it right".

Rather than rattle off a whole bunch of technical and other aspects, I'd like to mention a focus on something different: command. I'd like the sim to portray accurately what it was like to command a submarine.
- That means my CREW matters a great deal. I need people with skills. I need a good crew roster.
- As skipper, I make observations of a target's AoB, range etc and it's the fire control party that comes up with target course and speed and plot it on a map. I do NOT mean the same as the 'fire control officer assistance' in SHIII, mind you.
- I make firing observations but it's the crew that prepares the torps.
- I give precise depth/course/speed orders, it's the crew that does it.
In short, I do NOT want to have to go to all the different screens that are currently used to do manual fire control. It's NOT REALISTIC. The skipper didn't do all those things. So, when it comes to realism, I have 2 views:
1. technocrat realism - yes, I can go to all those screens to input everything.
2. command realism - no, I CAN'T do the input OTHER than the level of things controlled by the skipper.

A lot of people get excited over technical realism (such as controlling dive planes etc etc) yet ignore the fact that a skipper did not do all that stuff.

I want a revolution in that I command, and experience the pressures that go with that. I don't want to get bogged down in micro-managing TECHNICAL aspects a skipper didn't IRL. I'd like THAT to be an option in difficulty settings i.e. "realistic command Y/N". This would mean I'd need to think about sending crew members off to various technical schools while in base, and they might even miss the next patrol. That means I'm down an experienced person, but it also means they come back more skilled. Frankly, some R&R also becomes a factor. This sort of "strategic crew planning", looking at more than just the next patrol, was a factor in command, and I'd like to see it reflected in the sim.

Just some thoughts.

This is right on option. Also seperate engine control. If you have Fog,you don't have hi winds,if you have hi winds you have white caps. real sea states please.

[Steeltrap]

Thanks to all who enjoyed/supported my thoughts (particularly nice to get a or ).

It's good to see the familiar faces in my favourite game website (and I still find it hard to believe I was here - March 2001 - before many of the real 'characters').....

I've not posted for a while as I'm not playing - I upgraded to a sweet 22" high def Dell monitor and found SHIII didn't cope. Any solutions to that??

Hope all are well.

Cheers

[Cohaagen]

1) A complete Royal Navy

Or as complete as can be attempted. In 1939 the RN was still the biggest fleet in the world. It'd be more than a little disappointing if, like SH3, SH5 out the box consisted of a Revenge class, a carrier, some destroyers and a corvette. The fact that the Barham subclass, Ark Royal and HMS Courageous - all sunk by U-boats! - were missing is unforgivable. The RN is, after all, very much your main enemy in the game, just as the Kriegsmarine considered it during the war.

2) Randomised AI behaviour

One of the reasons why I've had diminishing returns with SH3, even after GWX, is that the actions of AI units are so easy to predict after a few months of playing.

3) Ahead-throwing weapons!

Most importantly Squid and Double Squid, with Loch Class frigates to carry them. Also, Mousetrap for US ships. Maybe even Shark - if it's valid to play as a Type XXI, it's surely valid to get fired at with experimental Allied weapons!

Squid is most important, though. It's not like it was an obscure weapon - it accounted for dozens of U-boats.

4) Realistic damage modelling and graphics based on real war accounts and photographs

Every individual ship should have unique compartment modelling to allow for different damage behaviour every time a torpedo hits.

That means:

No more putting one eel in the bow of a ship with a sinking guaranteed as the captain drives his ship underwater

Ships can stop or slow down to attempt damage control, even if this is just HP restoration or pumping out

All ships can break up, with either section sinking or staying afloat. Ships can lose their bow or stern sections and remain afloat. Warships can capsize, as they do in GWX

5) A full, proper and unified physics engine

6) Don't expect or rely upon modders to fix bugs, playtest or fill in the gaps for you!

7) Accurate ship behaviour

No more F1-style acceleration and stopping from 20yr old merchants and warships. Realistic turning circles and tactical diameters.

8) Remember your constituency - given a choice, realism and historical accuracy are far preferable to fancy graphics and effects


One last thing: I have to disagree with people asking for playable surface ships. If you attempt that, the sub portion of the game is inevitably going to suffer. Likewise, a combined Atlantic and Pacific game with the option to play as German, US, British, Japanese, Dutch, Siamese, Free French, Albanian, etc. is also going to have the effect of watering down the core experience. Pick one nationality - my choice is German - and stick with it.

[sabretwo]

1. Realistic AI and ship functions!

2. Ease of modability.

3. Completed submarine interior (Similar to what Tomi is working on for SH4) with interactive crew members. (A lot can be done with this!)

--- Animated damage (water filling compartments, smoke, etc.)
--- Crew animations synchronized with activity and condiitons (reloading torpedos, damage control, monitoring the engines, playing cards in the crew quarters, nervous and quiet when being hunted from above, etc.)

4. Better sea and sky graphics and animations.

[Indiana_Jones]

If they do make SH V, I would love to have internal view for the whole sub and watch the crew loading the torpedos and running down the sub for a crash dive.

Edit: see it's been said I few times, no surprise really lol.

[U-46 Commander]

A Lot like Silent Hunter 3, but with more eye candy (e.g. different sections of sub, crew loading external torps, etc.) and better graphics(e.g. No two month rain!!).

[PL_Andrev]

It is a cloudy March weekend in 2009, time 22. Players are ready on the voice channel. Now need time to choice the mission, launch games and synchronization. Now, the choice of ship ... and start. Today's mission: "The battle of Gigants."

17 minutes after patrol start, HMS Swordfish see and recognize the primary target. Her torpedoes are missed but position of target is transferred to other ships. Prince of Wales is the first opening fire, inaccurate yet. German team turns right… but there is a waiting British submarines... Win the British team is almost certain. Meanwhile, HMS Hood sees traces of torpedoes. Emergency back does not help - the British dreadnought is hit two times by U-113 and one by U-154. Few seconds later HMS Swordfish has submarine contact at a periscope depth…

Part of report from SH2 vs. DC game, 5 players + 3 AI
Maybe similar will be produced from SH5 soon…

* * *

What do you do if you will see this text on SH5 box?:

Multicontrol: Create real convoy battles with control to 8 independent submarines in wolf pack as single player at this same time!
Sea raiders career: Use submarines, auxiliary cruisers or whole naval task forces controlled by you to attack your enemies and crush his power!
New improvement of AI: Your enemy are not sleeping - use the weather conditions and your weapon to lose or destroy everyone who is hunting you!
Advanced multiplayer mode: Control several naval units, with cooperation or competition of other players in the execution of the orders by tasks!
Confrontation: Sink human controlled task forces or find and destroy human controlled wolf packs with your friends. Use all your experience to protect or attack convoys!
All naval units on your order: Control submarines, destroyers, battleships and even individual planes to crush your enemies in one hit!
Great battles: Play with friends in the greatest battles between allies and the axis and change the face of history with the potential to control max 32 units by 16 different players.

It is sleep? Miracle? No! Maybe it will be new Silent Hunter 5!

* * *

Comments:

* Single player mode / multicontrol:

I do not agree with standard opinion, AI in SH4 AI (1.5) is bed. The differences between the difficulty levels are highly visible (especially on multiplayer tests), and only what can be changed is the level of enemy detection - fortunately, this value is corrected by fans. Unfortunately, the AI works with standard war ships and merchants. I have the impression that the AI is not controlled enemy - because how to explain lack of response if AI sub is attacked by artillery fire from another sub? Implementation of AI to sub shouldn’t generate a problem, for example:

Is hard AI implementation to submarine AI control?
Let's look… For example:
AI submarine should attack when:
1) The target is closing or keep distance
2) AI calculate optimal speed and use (if distance is higher than 20km keep course, lower: use surface max speed, closer than 2/3 max visible range use depth)
3) Attack the most rating ship if possible (if not possible attack most rating ship in possible range).
4) Torpedo attack if the target is closer than 500meters (fog), 1500meters (day), or 2500 (night) with two torpedoes (T5 or better and electric if possible) with 10 seconds delay between periscope up and shot + attack of other nearest targets with 5 second delay, run silent and deep to reload.
5) If the level of sub is lower, then "perfect" accuracy of "weapon officer" is lower (f.e. +-5% for every level, real value calculated with random mistake), more delays, more allowed speed to catching the target
6) If sub is attacked by escort (run to 2/3 max depth, change course and depth with minutes delay depended form sub difficulty level.
7) If sub is attacked but high-rated target is very close (1000m) try to attack use "emergency surface", shot and emergency depth".
It is very, very simple implementation, only if…then conditions…

Good solution is build the “intelligence” as simple language with if…then conditions to easy change/build/rebuild by fans.

Other method is multicontrol – the players love it! This is known form Destroyer Command when player can control multiple units, with course, depth, speed… and control from hull every ship to attack when he want (other ships f.e. are hunting by escorts or re-loaded torpedoes).

It can be imagine as shown by two ways: as units with class, course, speed, depth, last info from crew on the main map and as mark/link/bookmark on the others view with last comment of crew (highlight on few seconds if new info like under attack, new contact etc). Click on the link make changing ship form actual to linked. To protect by overflowing of information and keep easy control, most standard new orders should be accepted on the main map - by click on unit to mark (not choose) and give new orders: course, speed, depth, attack by guns.
Special possible command: control by AI - if player doesn't want to control this unit longer.
Single player mode / sea raiders career:
There is many mods for SH3 and SH4 which allow to control naval units (naval it means battleships, cruisers, destroyers etc) as independent career mode. If something like this is existing it means that players want to play naval unit as alternative to submarine career.
In combination in last point, the player can order to group of subs (wolf pack / control 8 units in this same time) or as task force of naval ships.
Of course if we think about task force the AI support is needed - it is known that the task force can be find by enemy submarines, group of planes or enemy task force (on the IIWW the second side always sent the special group to find and destroy).
Is possible to use German task force to attack on British port? Why not. But if the task force is closer and closer to the enemy borders, the planes attack often and often...

Now the players which used "surface" mods can only attack enemy merchants / single destroyers / single planes (or find the convoy) by one ship. If we add maximum 7 others units, coordinated attacks by group of enemy planes and attacks of enemy submarines and naval units... my God, it will be wonderful game.
Can you imagine that your Tirpitz see the enemy convoy, the enemy escort is attacking you... and at this moment you see... track of torpedoes running to your capital ship?
OK, stop dreaming - this alternative line of game career development seems to be extremely promising...
Confrontation / cooperation / great battles:
With the environment now where you can play as a mechanism to ensure sufficient detection submarines by the escort led by a man, and the ability to choose the parties to the conflict to do something that will succeed the multiplayer SH2/DC system, which still has active player although 10 -year-old graphics.

The last thing that I would like to raise a question of mods created by fans. In my case I have set: SH4 + UBM + TMO163 + OM711 + SpaxSpeech71
With this set I must say that I lack only for multi-mode uboots campaign. Currently, the game is really great, with excellent graphics, a huge number of units, and by the addition of UBM and mod OM can play well as a party, in any region of the world. IF the game was released as the times from such a set would be a real hit, worth any price.

Confrontation / cooperation / great battles:
Proposed environments almost perfect. Almost.
The game with advertising mode is not popular in SH4 because... this is boring mode! The players are looking for something else... What it is?
Game against other humans, which control other naval ship (in SH4 only host can play naval units, others can control subs)
Active game against other humans, which control enemy submarines (in SH4 the host cannot detect submarines by self)
Game with friends against other side (in SH4 only host can play naval units, and ONLY against American subs)

Sub detection, coordinated attack with friends and against other humans on different nationality (GER/GB or JAP/USA or GB/ITA) with the full control of weapon, and searching mode is key power. It looks perfect on multiplayer SH2/DC system, which still has active players... Game with 10-year-old graphics!

The final thing that I would like to tell is something about mods, created by fans.
In my case: SH4 + UBM(bugs fix, uboats) + TMO163(harder) + OM711(new units, Atlantic theatre) + SpaxSpeech71(German speaking)
With this set I must say: the SH4 game is really great, with excellent graphics, a huge number of units, and with the addition of UBM expansion and mod OM can play well as a party, in any region of the world. If the game was released as this form it had a chance to be a real hit, worth any price. I need only one: multiplayer mode for uboats....
Additional comments

1) Network:
I am surprised with observation that the maximum detail of "density particles" makes disconnecting players during multiplayer mode. Strange. Please remember that everyone have not perfect and fast connections to network. The game should use minimum data transfer between players, allowing a large number of players (up to 16) and many units in game (convoy's ships and planes).
I know and I understand that developers hate pirates. Maybe good solution is registration game by STEAM machine to use patches and allow multiplayer mode by LAN?

2) Signatures in multiplayer mode
Both solutions in SH3 and SH4 are not perfect. In the SH4 is better but my proposals:
- active or inactive signatures mode created by host when multiplayer game starts
- observer mode: turn on signatures (to full enjoy with views of the battles which offer SH).

3) Naval units
Many people are waiting for DestroyerCommand2 but... there have it in Silent Hunter environment! We need only:
Play as sub/naval with teams with friends and again humans
Play side and theatre as we want
Looking for subs and attack by human DD
Many people against themselves (up to 16)
Multicontrol if needed.
...The environment, graphics, engine, many units, atmosphere we have already...

4) Multicontrol mode
If the multicontrol (control up to 8 units at this same time) will be allowed, few method of control should be implemented:
*) Full AI control (if more free units than humans, and humans don't want control them or multicontrol is not allowed by mission author)
*) Full human control, with possibility of AI control, if request
*) Full AI control if player is disconnected from server (keep balance game)
*) Partial human control for convoy (small change of course, change speed, max speed for convoy, max ship per every ship in convoy, split)
*) Partial human control of planes (course, allow to attack, change target) and planes (launch few planes in some frequency)
Partial human control means that all contacts and attack are controlled by AI: unit reports contact automatically to owner and team like enemy contact, torpedoes, autoattack on closer contact, correction course and speed to avoid hitting by torpedoes or enemy artillery...

Of course plane should be used if the weather is good, and launch from plane is possible when the ship's course is about +- 20 degrees to wind direction...

5) Fan's mods:
Do you think to implementation fan's mods even greater than it is today? The fans actually improves everything possible to improve, increasing the quality of the final product. Still, there is an opinion that "not a good play on the basic version - but with mods SH4 is really good game", Now, with the mods SH4 show his leadership. Unfortunately, SH4 changes opinion about his developer... We can only regret that the fans creating a groundbreaking projects and mods are not invited to participate in the creation of next product. This may well, because this way everyone can choose to mod their needs, as in my case. I was happy when subsim give the information about Sh5: not in 2009 but in 2010! More time to wait... but maybe we're waiting now for the perfect product...

6) AI language
I know that AI is hardcoded in SH4. Maybe the better idea is creating it at open source which can be modified by users?
For example, used if..then operations in txt files which be uploaded to CPU at checked for one second per ship...
Modders will can implemented more different strategies for merchants / warships / submarines, where AI is decided which target is more optimal, especially if the target of AI is controlled by human...
But the AI is not bad, with TMO163, the elite DD is always destroying player's submarine...

Probably in September will be available official version of "surface supermod", offering the naval battles between two enemy sides (again, there is an analogy to the familiar atmosphere of SH2/DC).
The first battle will be played will duel Hood + PrinceOfWales Vs. Bismarck + PrinzEugen...

[Task Force]

OPTAMISED!!! yes, optamise the game.... I got 200fps almost in sh3 why should I be getting 40 fps in sh4...

[JF1981]

1/ Diving control improved
- diving planes (divin control surfaces) manual control
- ballast manual control

We want the sub sim to be more realistic.
When one had to change rapidly from depth, one had in previous version of the sim to go at full speed.
In reality, even with slow speed one could fill the ballast tanks, which is not possible in previous SH thought done automatically but not enough in certains cases.
Please include manual control of the ballasts as well as diving planes (the diving surfaces angle). This feature means that changing depth at close from no spead should be possible at the vertical speed we want. Previously, going from 200 to 10 meters took ~2 mins at full speed and 15 mins at reduced speed. By mean of manual ballasts, one can vary the vertical speed and get from lowest depth to periscope depth in a reasonable ammount of time, which used to be only possible by pushing the E motor in the previous SH.

2/ Multiplayer is important
- in general, the AI does not what humans do
- human vs human is much more interesting than human vs AI

Pease do something that allows to have like previously (SH III) the battles hu/hu (DD/SUB) which made the sub sim 10 times more interesting in my sense than SH IV, simply because those battles are much more difficult/complex in a certain way.

3/ Dynamic campaign or at least non linear campaign

In the way SH III did the things, the fun was really high, because of the fact that linear campaign within such a sub sim where one can do whatever he wants, is really not suitable.

We want to have freedom and encounter the traffic as we could, given the informations transmitted by radio, or given the chances that convoys are passing through certain critical paths.

Simply linear scenario is really not that interesting in campaign mode.

4/ We want to be able to customize as much as possible the ship loadout such as type as torpedoes, ...

5/ We want a much larger scale of type of mission such as
- intercept
- rescue
- recon
- other special missions
- milk cow (receive or give for example)

6/ We want a much better AI
- If our sub is discovered and localized, one should go in the opposite direction (even if this means turning from 120° for ex), making our attack hopeless but going at surface and changing position again without being noticed
- the direction change could be much more clever if our sub is localized, in order to avoid the situation where we are able to have a good firing position, and not only starting to zig zag, keeping the same direction more or less ( I mean instead og going 90° then zigzagging 60/120 one could turn completely heading 180° if our sub is located at 10 o'clock or making zig zags that are constantly changing in degree and in duration)

7/ Pushing realism further
- Why not including a realism campaign mode where calculating our position in the only way, this might be done by a crew member of course, however simple accurate plot on the map is graphically nice, but really too easy. Realism mode should not plot position, rather calculate inaccurate location of our ship, however should manual position calculation be possible (by instruments, stars etc), we could try to understand how difficult was life in those ships.
- In general, using the intruments to get informations out of the sub is really something nice, for example, such as other sims, why not to include depending on the realism level, a difficult mode where reading depth out of the mano is the only way to know our depth ?

In summary

Yes graphics are important,
Yes it is nice to implement new features, but
Don't forget that we are now used to difficult subsim games and
That we need a much more interesting challenge, "sim"ly speaking.

In that sense, SH will stay the leader of this kind of sim, as is IL-2 for air sim of the 40's.

Thanks for notice.

Footnote :

(1) And Yes, related to an above post, please Open Source of what can be, such as AI code.

(2) As well, in general, please produce a High Quality game, this is really a major point after SH IV missed to do that (I personally prefer SH III, except for the graphics)

(3) Very special care on the hydrophone is really appreciated since this is, when one knows how to listen, a precious help to locate and extract informations such as type, gross speed and direction of the unit just by listening to the propeller.
* Only earing a noise, always the same, without any parameters adapted to the reality of the ship is annoying. Earing the propeller from front, side or from rear is really not the same, just for example.
* At high speed, the propeller cavitates, which is a really specific noise.
* Taking the time to make a really accurate and complex to understand and manage sound system is really something that would improve by 10 times the interest of the game, since "hard simmers" are certainly going to do a wide use of this in order to locate and go in the right position of convoys, even in the deep, below the temperature layers, without being noticed.
* The noise of the waves and the rain could be something really disturbing if it is bad wether as well
* Screw skill on the hydrophones should change the accuracy of the informations we receive
* Implementing simple black and red lined on the map, showing the direction of the ships, is in my sense not a good way to proceed. Rather simplify the things and segregate the hydrophone informations from the map ones, keeping in our hands the task to manage the phone's informations and ploting what can be.

(4) Finally, keeping in touch with the community, and in particular giving the feed back about all the features that are going to be implemented could be something we appreciate during development phase.

In the end, Listening about each and every community comment and question is now really a mark that this game will be emphasized by us or not who are the customer in the end. Taking the time to have the reflection about what should be done in design phase is worth, sure.

[PL_Andrev]

Weather conditions in multiplayer missions set by the host, with default author's parameters (hour, cloudy level, intensity of rain or snow, wind direction and strength, visibility / fog)

In addition option: "random" to lazy hosts

This will allow to fast change of weather conditions for multiplayer mission.
Second issue: with different conditions the nonlinear way of mission development is more possible.

[Lionman]

Although one hopes that it is by this time obvious to them all, it is still worth stressing to developers, money men and game designers whom we hope read these Fori for feedback, research and strategic target marketing, that the subsim community is unique in the simulation world in one regard. "Virtual submariners" are generally unusually patient, intelligent, mature (in years or attitude) and knowledgable people with long attention spans, quite at ease with steep learning curves, who take pleasure in historical research, realism and increasing their background knowledge of submarine warfare.

Accordingly we are a market tailor-made for "Special Edition" products, realism enhancement MODS, history based campaign add-ons, sub skins, avatars, medals, crew pictures and super-realistic AI. Also, as subsims come out extremely seldom and the SH franchise has long really been the only game in town, we are prepared to pay and wait for quality and "depth". (!!!!) Indeed these "wish list" threads attest to this in every way and almost every post.

[Sailor Steve]

First post in the thread:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Please note any comments, ideas, suggestions, and observations you would like to make about SH5; what would make it great, what mistakes from SH3/SH4 not to repeat, etc.

NOTE: Post your thoughts and opinions, do not comment on other member's posts in this thread. Flaming not allowed.

Thanks
Neal

[Sub Commander]

Little bit off-topic but still want to mension this. Ubisoft is going to tell us more about SH 5 at Cologne's GameCom what if they say they are not going to release it before christmas 2010 or later... maybe they will say this is going to be the last world war 2 installement......

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Sub Commander

Little bit off-topic but still want to mension this. Ubisoft is going to tell us more about SH 5 at Cologne's GameCom what if they say they are not going to release it before christmas 2010 or later... maybe they will say this is going to be the last world war 2 installement......

I hope not....would love to see a PTO addon