America Is from Mars, Europe Is from Venus - Page 4

Schroeder · 03-18-09, 08:16 AM

Yup, that's how it goes here.
If you are not streamlined you won't get anywhere in one of our big parties.
A friend of mine has been in the city council of my city and says exactly what Skybird said.
It is not for the well-being of the city any more. If someone from the opposite party makes a great suggestion then you still can't support it because your own party HAS to be against it no matter how great the idea is.

Another disgusting thing is that everybody tries to suck up to higher people in the party to rise in the hierarchy sooner or later themselves.

Positions within the council were not given to people with competence but to people with the right party membership.

And the worst is:
If you try to break out of this circle of filth you will hardly get any support. You will never rise within the party and sooner or later they might even ask you politely to leave it altogether.

03-18-09, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

That is constructive, and but when it comes to money and power, everybody will be his own next. That's life, that's mankind. Has always been like that, is like that now, will always remain to be like that.

CaptHaplo,
Merkel and Thather couldn'T be more apart. Before she got elected, some people, me included, saw her that way, but then we realised that she is not. That the government is a boat without rudder and captain since three years is in parts due to the circumstance of the Great Coalition. But it also is Merkel. she had her shining moment at Heiligendamm, which was just fireworks. And then nothing, but plenty of failed reforms (partially sacked by the Constitutional Court) and worstening of situation in several fields. Definitely one of the weakest and unimpressive governments in German post-war history.

Next autumn there will be new elections. Then people have the choice between Steinmeier and Merkel. To me that is like the choice between plague and cholera. merkel being shy to act with power and endlessly manouvering, and stei9nmeier living by playacting as a mixture of proletarian-friend and grandfather, but his intentional slow way of talking cannot hide that he is talking a lot of nonsens and often simply ignores everything in relaity he does not like. Plus he increaisngly shos attitudes and styles of behavior like Schroeder did.

Germany has not enough good names anymore. and maybe that is both deserved and a consequence of our general cultural decline. Forget a solid and competent German leadership. Right now there are no names on our national political stage that I would even tolerate to form a german government. the two or three that comes to my mind - are in their eighties and nineties.

As a German radio commentator has put it early this year: "Deutschland vergreist. Anders ausgedrückt: Deutschland verblödet."

Spot on. One reason why I stopped ging to elections for the last 2 years. Chosing the better of two evils works for a given time, but it becoming a long term affair then there is not much sense in going to vote. After all, the reasons there are elections is for you having the possibility to vote "for" something. But all the options now are to vote "against" parties. The parties themselves support that view. After all their politics are solely made of breaking short term created election promises and denouncing everything coming from the opposition.
I already thought about joining politics myself, but given these here are made at Stammtische and Hinterzimmer, this is not a real option for myself. I am not into this at all. I prefer up and honest to the front politics, something you can't find here. No wonder, given this democracy is designed to keep the people out. I am not going to support this system any longer.
If that means more radical parties come to power, well....all ppl enjoy the governments they deserve.

heartc · 03-18-09, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Well Skybird,

Why don't you throw your hat in the ring? Its not easy or fun - but you have the strength of mind to do it. Remember - discussion is good, but sooner or later we must also push action to effect positive reaction.

You must be crazy. There are already enough narcistic demagogues in politics.

Skybird · 03-18-09, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Spot on. One reason why I stopped ging to elections for the last 2 years. Chosing the better of two evils works for a given time, but it becoming a long term affair then there is not much sense in going to vote. After all, the reasons there are elections is for you having the possibility to vote "for" something. But all the options now are to vote "against" parties. The parties themselves support that view. After all their politics are solely made of breaking short term created election promises and denouncing everything coming from the opposition.
I already thought about joining politics myself, but given these here are made at Stammtische and Hinterzimmer, this is not a real option for myself. I am not into this at all. I prefer up and honest to the front politics, something you can't find here. No wonder, given this democracy is designed to keep the people out. I am not going to support this system any longer.
If that means more radical parties come to power, well....all ppl enjoy the governments they deserve.

I find it ironic to see Merkel, who grew up in the DDR and under the polit bureau they had, once claimed to enjoy the new democratic freedom - and uses it to help establish a very same type of politbureau in the EU, and taking checks and balances, democratic sharing of the people in decision and will forming, and the constitutional rights of sovereign parliaments away from Europe.

It has been some months since I first got the not seriously meant idea to compare the EU commission and it's intended uncontrolled and not democratically legitimised executive power (as intended by the dictate of Lisbon, and in parts already praticed) with the old polit bureaus in the eastern dictatorships that all claimed to be "by the people, in the name of the people". But the more I thought about it, the less I laughed, and I realised how striking the parrallels already are. Today I am not joking anymore when calling the top level of the EU a polit bureau.

heartc · 03-19-09, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

It has been some months since I first got the not seriously meant idea to compare the EU commission and it's intended uncontrolled and not democratically legitimised executive power (as intended by the dictate of Lisbon, and in parts already praticed) with the old polit bureaus in the eastern dictatorships that all claimed to be "by the people, in the name of the people". But the more I thought about it, the less I laughed, and I realised how striking the parrallels already are. Today I am not joking anymore when calling the top level of the EU a polit bureau.

Faster, Skybird, Faster!

P.S.: Not worshipping "Der Spiegel" and state-sponsored television news helps.

03-19-09, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

I find it ironic to see Merkel, who grew up in the DDR and under the polit bureau they had, once claimed to enjoy the new democratic freedom - and uses it to help establish a very same type of politbureau in the EU, and taking checks and balances, democratic sharing of the people in decision and will forming, and the constitutional rights of sovereign parliaments away from Europe.

It has been some months since I first got the not seriously meant idea to compare the EU commission and it's intended uncontrolled and not democratically legitimised executive power (as intended by the dictate of Lisbon, and in parts already praticed) with the old polit bureaus in the eastern dictatorships that all claimed to be "by the people, in the name of the people". But the more I thought about it, the less I laughed, and I realised how striking the parrallels already are. Today I am not joking anymore when calling the top level of the EU a polit bureau.

Politbureaus have an agenda, though, as shaky the basis for that may be. What we have is....well, what do we have? A couple ppl floating somehwere up there without a real goal just for the principle of floating up there. How do you fight hot air?

Skybird · 03-19-09, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

How do you fight hot air?

Inciting it by FAEs.

03-19-09, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Inciting it by FAEs.

with fuel prices as low as they are, there's not a better time right now

Unluckily I do not cosnider the whole system reformable. The ppl able to do that profit from these organisations too much to have any interest in rebuilding it, both on a national and a european level. I yet have to see a polititan actually even stating he'd like to make some changes, not to speak about folks acting at all.
And nobody is interested in revolutions or coups d'etat anymore. It simply does not fit into modern days political minds anymore, no matter within society or government.

That aside, can you imagine what the world would say if there was a revolution in Germany, overthrowing the democraticly elected government, as much as it may suck?

We'd be having NATO here in no time for international "oh my god they do it again!" paranoia.

Not that far fetched, however. Looking at what the government does I start to understand what the folks within the Weimar Republic must have felt and the amounts of frustration building up about the inability of their elected leaders. Shows were the wish for propper leadership came from. The cuts made to our rights within the last couple years in the name of fighting terrorism and tax evading don't seem to bother a lot of people after all, contrary what I used to think about this country when I was still in school.

Skybird · 03-19-09, 05:05 PM

The opposite to freedom is - security. Think about it. It is true, both are almost antagonistic in man's reality.

On our decline: we erode from within. We weaken ourselves. We get sold away by those whom we trusted to lead us.

Our enemies, both in deed and thought, fight us. Our economists abuse us. Those who wish the fall of our freedoms and values for the sake of replacing them with their own ideas, work towards that goal with great patience, determination and single-mindedness. And some of the latter are respected figures in our middle. Our worst enemies claim to wear our own colours, and turn them against us.

We do not fight back, but we chose to fall back instead. We see no need for self-defence - we consume and believe in glory that once was, but is no more.

Others strike us. We party. We do not get betrayed so much - we allow us to get betrayed.

We seem to get what we deserve.

And I am in a gloomy mood, it seems.

03-20-09, 04:37 AM

I am aware. The right balance needs to be found between the two.

Well, poetically put. Unluckily and as much as I would like to oppose, I fear you really are not that far off.

The problem is not evil intentions, however, but ignorance and convinience. No vision, no principles, no agenda, actually, nothing. Gaining power for powers sake instead of gaining power to make something happen is a credo I can't live with. Period. That is the problem with a political establishment that lacks the war exprience It's forerunners had as far as I can see it. As a result they just float from election to election. Parties are hollow bodies, their only reason for existance obviously self preservation.

Darn, Weimar calls again.

No basis for complaints as long one does not get active oneself. But I seriously hate the ways one has to go to become a polititian here.

Skybird · 03-20-09, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bewolf

No basis for complaints as long one does not get active oneself. But I seriously hate the ways one has to go to become a polititian here.

Being a politician is no longer a vocation or duty being followed. It has turned into a regular job. People want to make a career by it, and in it. That'S why politicvians cannot imagine to ever get voted out of their job again, and are so creative in finding ways to fall the ladder upwards even if loosing elections. They do not serve. They think the political stage around them is for serving themselves. No modesty in their acting, therefore, no humbleness: upwards your career must go! No sense of fulfilling an overriding duty. Some of the old Prussian virtues gone, is really a loss. When Schmidt after his chancellorship, during which he vcertainly was not short of a certain cold-mouthed arrogance, was offered the Bundesverdienstkreuz - he rejected it, saying that fulfillment of duty deserves and needs no rewards - else it wouldn't have been a duty.

Career managers - that's what we have.

03-20-09, 08:04 AM

That is exactly the point I was going at. Having a democracy like ours, even when it was concieved to have the ppl out, was fine and dandy as long the folks running the show had a basis of exprience aquired during the 30ies and 40ies which gave them a good foundation to base their ideals and descisions upon. Adenauer, Schmidt, Brandt, tel me what you want about these folks, but they at least had a seriousness and a basic understanding of society and history that asked for respect. Nothing left of that nowadays, starting with the generation Kohl.
The current generation of politians have...nothing. As you already said, it's a career, no humbleness, no modesty, no sense for "serving" a country. Look at the likes of Koch, Stoiber, Steinbrück, Lafontaine..all politians bound for power and influence, one trying to top the other in presenting themselves and getting involved into affairs they have absolutely no place in, the recent ZDF scandal a perfect example. Especially the Ministerpräsidenten I'd shot one after the other, acting like feudal aristocracy in their respective Bundesländer.

And there is not a single means to change this but if they decide to do it themselves. Which won't happen. That is the tragedy.

Skybird · 03-20-09, 03:33 PM

the status of the ministerpräsidenten is due to the demand after world war 2 to prevent a strong central government in germany. thats why their status and power in the improvised constitution, the Basic Law, has been boosted so much: to counter "too much" centralism. But the Basic Law was expected to be changed once reunification had taken place, turning it into a real, full-status constitution being called that: no Basic Law, but a constitution.

That so strong local chieftains would not like to agree to change the legal basis of their immense power and influence for selfish reasons, has been overseen, it seems. And that's why 20 years after reunification we still have no regular consiotution, but just a somewhat improvised placeholder. And it will stay like that. And that is why we will noever have such astrong and free-to-act government in the future like they can have in the US, England or France.

03-20-09, 03:46 PM

I am aware of all that. With special thanks to France in this regard, btw. Nevertheless, considering this basic law was formulated by the Ministerpräsidenten of the then existing Länder, these had their fair share in those troubles as well, rightly as you say, continuing to this very day.

Which actually only leaves three options.

1. The least likely option, things will stay as they are, and ppl will adapt. Unlikely to happen in the long run, as history proves.

2. The government will change itself. That is not that unlikely after all. Most "revolutions" in Germany since the 18 hundreds came from the top, starting with the prussian reforms within the napoleonic timeframe. 1848 and 1918 noteably exceptions.

3. The ppl will get their change, one way or another. What comes next is speclative, nowadays I have enough trust in my countrymen to once again chose democracy should the option arise, but one never knows. Right now democracy in Germany certainly shows a poor performance.

03-18-09, 08:16 AM	#46
Schroeder Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Banana Republic of Germany Posts: 6,170 Downloads: 62 Uploads: 0	Yup, that's how it goes here. If you are not streamlined you won't get anywhere in one of our big parties. A friend of mine has been in the city council of my city and says exactly what Skybird said. It is not for the well-being of the city any more. If someone from the opposite party makes a great suggestion then you still can't support it because your own party HAS to be against it no matter how great the idea is. Another disgusting thing is that everybody tries to suck up to higher people in the party to rise in the hierarchy sooner or later themselves. Positions within the council were not given to people with competence but to people with the right party membership. And the worst is: If you try to break out of this circle of filth you will hardly get any support. You will never rise within the party and sooner or later they might even ask you politely to leave it altogether. __________________ Putting Germ back into Germany.

03-19-09, 05:05 PM	#54
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,784 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	The opposite to freedom is - security. Think about it. It is true, both are almost antagonistic in man's reality. On our decline: we erode from within. We weaken ourselves. We get sold away by those whom we trusted to lead us. Our enemies, both in deed and thought, fight us. Our economists abuse us. Those who wish the fall of our freedoms and values for the sake of replacing them with their own ideas, work towards that goal with great patience, determination and single-mindedness. And some of the latter are respected figures in our middle. Our worst enemies claim to wear our own colours, and turn them against us. We do not fight back, but we chose to fall back instead. We see no need for self-defence - we consume and believe in glory that once was, but is no more. Others strike us. We party. We do not get betrayed so much - we allow us to get betrayed. We seem to get what we deserve. And I am in a gloomy mood, it seems. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-20-09, 03:33 PM	#58
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,784 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	the status of the ministerpräsidenten is due to the demand after world war 2 to prevent a strong central government in germany. thats why their status and power in the improvised constitution, the Basic Law, has been boosted so much: to counter "too much" centralism. But the Basic Law was expected to be changed once reunification had taken place, turning it into a real, full-status constitution being called that: no Basic Law, but a constitution. That so strong local chieftains would not like to agree to change the legal basis of their immense power and influence for selfish reasons, has been overseen, it seems. And that's why 20 years after reunification we still have no regular consiotution, but just a somewhat improvised placeholder. And it will stay like that. And that is why we will noever have such astrong and free-to-act government in the future like they can have in the US, England or France. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

03-20-09, 04:37 AM	#55
Bewolf Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I am aware. The right balance needs to be found between the two. Well, poetically put. Unluckily and as much as I would like to oppose, I fear you really are not that far off. The problem is not evil intentions, however, but ignorance and convinience. No vision, no principles, no agenda, actually, nothing. Gaining power for powers sake instead of gaining power to make something happen is a credo I can't live with. Period. That is the problem with a political establishment that lacks the war exprience It's forerunners had as far as I can see it. As a result they just float from election to election. Parties are hollow bodies, their only reason for existance obviously self preservation. Darn, Weimar calls again. No basis for complaints as long one does not get active oneself. But I seriously hate the ways one has to go to become a polititian here.

03-20-09, 08:04 AM	#57
Bewolf Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	That is exactly the point I was going at. Having a democracy like ours, even when it was concieved to have the ppl out, was fine and dandy as long the folks running the show had a basis of exprience aquired during the 30ies and 40ies which gave them a good foundation to base their ideals and descisions upon. Adenauer, Schmidt, Brandt, tel me what you want about these folks, but they at least had a seriousness and a basic understanding of society and history that asked for respect. Nothing left of that nowadays, starting with the generation Kohl. The current generation of politians have...nothing. As you already said, it's a career, no humbleness, no modesty, no sense for "serving" a country. Look at the likes of Koch, Stoiber, Steinbrück, Lafontaine..all politians bound for power and influence, one trying to top the other in presenting themselves and getting involved into affairs they have absolutely no place in, the recent ZDF scandal a perfect example. Especially the Ministerpräsidenten I'd shot one after the other, acting like feudal aristocracy in their respective Bundesländer. And there is not a single means to change this but if they decide to do it themselves. Which won't happen. That is the tragedy.

03-20-09, 03:46 PM	#59
Bewolf Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I am aware of all that. With special thanks to France in this regard, btw. Nevertheless, considering this basic law was formulated by the Ministerpräsidenten of the then existing Länder, these had their fair share in those troubles as well, rightly as you say, continuing to this very day. Which actually only leaves three options. 1. The least likely option, things will stay as they are, and ppl will adapt. Unlikely to happen in the long run, as history proves. 2. The government will change itself. That is not that unlikely after all. Most "revolutions" in Germany since the 18 hundreds came from the top, starting with the prussian reforms within the napoleonic timeframe. 1848 and 1918 noteably exceptions. 3. The ppl will get their change, one way or another. What comes next is speclative, nowadays I have enough trust in my countrymen to once again chose democracy should the option arise, but one never knows. Right now democracy in Germany certainly shows a poor performance.