Two more critics of Vladimir Putin take bullets in the head - Page 4

August · 01-22-09, 06:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

The point was we have $10 trillion worth of debt total, and China and Japan account for most of it. Glad we cleared that up. Now, back to the topic.

Well that's certainly not what you said originally and FWIW 47% is not the "most" of anything. Since you seem to have a penchant for exaggeration and obfuscation, at least be honorable enough to admit it when someone catches you at it.

Skybird · 01-23-09, 08:43 PM

In a longer piece of docu on radio this late evening, they said that now all points at ultranationalists having ordered the assassination, and that most foreign observers do not have the Kremlin or Putin on their list of suspects, but that these nationalists were the top suspects from the beginning. It also would not have been the first assassination of too stubborn journalists these ultranationalists have ordered. that makes sense considering the role of ultranationalistists in the wake of the Beslan massacre and their attitude towards Chechnya - and the killed journalist having been engaged with researching on Beslan.

AntEater · 01-24-09, 07:29 AM

I suppose this system works similar to the "Fememorde" in the 1920s in Germany.
Right wing organisations killed people involved with the treaty of Versailles.
The state had nothing to do with it, but many individuals sympathized with the perpetrators. If somebody was caught, he could expect a mild sentence.

A similar system is the "deep state" in Turkey, where people critical of the turkish state usually drop dead.

Strange how Americans usually think of other countries as some kind of monolithic block with a single will, while in reality their internal politics are as complex and diverse as those in the US.
I mean if somebody shot Michael Moore during the Bush administration, would the world have blamed it on Bush?

Onkel Neal · 01-24-09, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AntEater

I mean if somebody shot Michael Moore during the Bush administration, would the world have blamed it on Bush?

Yes, you included.

Skybird · 01-24-09, 09:15 AM

I would have assumed Cheney had a hunting day again.

antikristuseke · 01-24-09, 09:32 AM

Had Moore been taken care of during the bush administration, it would have been one of the best things to have happened in those 8 years.

Onkel Neal · 01-24-09, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

I would have assumed Cheney had a hunting day again.

I think Cheney already had his maximum for the year

Frame57 · 01-25-09, 12:53 PM

Guys like Putin are why guys like Ian Fleming are famous....

XabbaRus · 01-25-09, 12:58 PM

Putin wasn't even that great as an operative given that his spy ring got busted in no time.

The point is though that at the moment whenever a journalist gets killed in Russia it is laid immediately at the feet of the Kremlin. During the Yeltsin years journalists were being killed as well.

The thing that gets me is that no one ever looks behind the motives of some of these journalists.

Take the current scandal with the Lords who have alleged to have accepted money to make amendments to laws. From what I understand it was a sting with journos pretending to be lobyists setting them up.

CaptainHaplo · 01-25-09, 02:00 PM

Two points here.

First - This cannot be laid at the feet of Putin or the Kremlin in general. The fact is there are MANY groups in Russia fighting for power. These range from politicians and government, to corporations, mafia and the "free" press itself. However, to claim that Russia is "staying home and not bothering anyone" as Dowly said - is blatently false. Look at the Ukraine - heck - look out how Russia just recently forced a renegotiation for gas that almost shut down heat to half of Europe. It wasn't long ago that Russian forces invaded a former soviet state. Note its FORMER - they didn't want to be part of the "greater soviet empire". Which leads to the second point.

I understood Neal's point very clearly. For the past 8 years we have had many come on here and bash America, its policies, and its actions. Some posters were citizens of the US, others were not. Almost invariably, the criticism was centered around George Bush and his "conservative" views. *Calling him conservative is definitely NOT accurate however*

The point being made was that so many want to come here and bash our home - a country that - while some of us may not agree with its path - we love and hold dear, same as many of you do with your nations. Yet as soon as the "evil george bush" (who was legally elected via our constitutional process) is gone, we are told by these same people, again both foreign and domestic, that every other country and government should never even be glanced at, much less be put to outside scrutiny. Sorry - but that is the definition of hypocritical. And - to top it all off - these same people - particularly those residents of other countries - come here to TELL US what we are supposed to do - which is NOT TELL ANYONE ELSE what to do. Funny - your coming here to tell us not to do exactly what your here doing. And then you can't see the hypocrasy?

As for the comment that the evil george bush caused more death and harm than the dictators of places like Iran, Iraq, China, etc..... Apparently the liberal drug policies of europe have finally had the affect intended - killing every usable brain cell in the citizenry. Saddam Hussein and his sons were responsible for many genocidal acts while in power. Iran currently is training and supplying insurgents that are in Iraq and (thru Syria) hezbollah who targets civilians as well. But hey, we can ignore that right? Not to mention the civilian repression that is rampant in places like Iran, Korea, China, etc.

What's even funnier is these same people and countries they are from stand idly by while genocide in Darfur occurs. After all - its outside their borders - it doesnt matter. Where has the EU been since Darfur started? Oh - but you point the finger at us as if its our job to stop all the messes in the world - then when WE don't act you claim "well your selective about freedom based on whats in it for you". Again - I don't see the EU having a strong force there in the last year to stop it. Why? Because its not important to you - but its ok to point at someone else to say we are bad because we didnt go fix it while you all sit home lazy, fat and happy.

OK - so its been more than a couple of points. Here comes another.

Yes our public debt is somehere near 10 trillion. So for all the domestic liberals who screamed about bush spending way too much - how come I don't hear you all screaming about Obama's admission that his FIRST YEAR in office his budget will increase the deficit by 20% - or 2Trillion more. If that were to stay the same for 4 years - he will have grown the deficit by more than 150% above what the evil george bush did.
*For reference - when George Bush took office in 2001 the Public Dept was around $5,674,178,209,886.86 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...S._public_debt

While I agree that George Bush was no friend to the economy or the public debt, if Obama doesnt increase his budgets one dime in the next four years - he will have added 8 Trillion to the debt in 4 years - almost DOUBLING it in one term. But hey, all you "Obama is the savior" people, I guess facts dont matter.

For the record, I didn't like most of Bush's policies either. He was however, right on Iraq - though he handled it all wrong once the decision was made. He was wrong on the economy, illegal immigration and trade though.

MothBalls · 01-25-09, 02:37 PM

Back to the original topic.......

Russia has always had the Alpha Male mentality. They do what they think is best for Russia, everyone else be damned. If you disagree you end up on the side of a milk carton or on the business end of an assassins silencer. If you're a Russian reporter and you haven't figured out that you can't get away with American journalism in Eastern Europe, then you're life expectancy will be shorter than your smarter counterparts.

<looks over shoulder> I agree with everything Putin says and does.

Kapitan · 01-25-09, 05:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MothBalls

Back to the original topic.......

Russia has always had the Alpha Male mentality. They do what they think is best for Russia, everyone else be damned. If you disagree you end up on the side of a milk carton or on the business end of an assassins silencer. If you're a Russian reporter and you haven't figured out that you can't get away with American journalism in Eastern Europe, then you're life expectancy will be shorter than your smarter counterparts.

<looks over shoulder> I agree with everything Putin says and does.

Thats a shame i was just polishing my dragnov

XabbaRus · 01-25-09, 06:57 PM

Well one it is only a select few who come here and bash the US, two Russia forcing the negotiations. Ukraine didn't pay its bill, it got cut off when it refused to pay the price everyone else was paying. That happens if I don't pay my gas bill when they put the price up.

Most of us don't bash the US.

I understand what Neal is saying but Russia gets enough criticism. The truth be told though half the journos in my opinion who report on Russia don't know jack about what they are saying, especially the BBC but they went down the pan a long time ago s*****g the c*** of the PC brigade.....

01-23-09, 08:43 PM	#47
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,632 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	In a longer piece of docu on radio this late evening, they said that now all points at ultranationalists having ordered the assassination, and that most foreign observers do not have the Kremlin or Putin on their list of suspects, but that these nationalists were the top suspects from the beginning. It also would not have been the first assassination of too stubborn journalists these ultranationalists have ordered. that makes sense considering the role of ultranationalistists in the wake of the Beslan massacre and their attitude towards Chechnya - and the killed journalist having been engaged with researching on Beslan. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-24-09, 07:29 AM	#48
AntEater Grey Wolf Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Germany Posts: 936 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	I suppose this system works similar to the "Fememorde" in the 1920s in Germany. Right wing organisations killed people involved with the treaty of Versailles. The state had nothing to do with it, but many individuals sympathized with the perpetrators. If somebody was caught, he could expect a mild sentence. A similar system is the "deep state" in Turkey, where people critical of the turkish state usually drop dead. Strange how Americans usually think of other countries as some kind of monolithic block with a single will, while in reality their internal politics are as complex and diverse as those in the US. I mean if somebody shot Michael Moore during the Bush administration, would the world have blamed it on Bush? __________________

01-24-09, 09:15 AM	#50
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,632 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	I would have assumed Cheney had a hunting day again. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

01-25-09, 12:53 PM	#53
Frame57 Sea Lord Join Date: May 2008 Location: 1300 feet on the crapper Posts: 1,860 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Guys like Putin are why guys like Ian Fleming are famous.... __________________ "My Religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds." Albert Einstein

01-25-09, 12:58 PM	#54
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Putin wasn't even that great as an operative given that his spy ring got busted in no time. The point is though that at the moment whenever a journalist gets killed in Russia it is laid immediately at the feet of the Kremlin. During the Yeltsin years journalists were being killed as well. The thing that gets me is that no one ever looks behind the motives of some of these journalists. Take the current scandal with the Lords who have alleged to have accepted money to make amendments to laws. From what I understand it was a sting with journos pretending to be lobyists setting them up. __________________

01-24-09, 09:32 AM	#51
antikristuseke Silent Hunter Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Estland Posts: 4,330 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Had Moore been taken care of during the bush administration, it would have been one of the best things to have happened in those 8 years.

01-25-09, 02:00 PM	#55
CaptainHaplo Silent Hunter Join Date: Apr 2007 Posts: 4,404 Downloads: 29 Uploads: 0	Two points here. First - This cannot be laid at the feet of Putin or the Kremlin in general. The fact is there are MANY groups in Russia fighting for power. These range from politicians and government, to corporations, mafia and the "free" press itself. However, to claim that Russia is "staying home and not bothering anyone" as Dowly said - is blatently false. Look at the Ukraine - heck - look out how Russia just recently forced a renegotiation for gas that almost shut down heat to half of Europe. It wasn't long ago that Russian forces invaded a former soviet state. Note its FORMER - they didn't want to be part of the "greater soviet empire". Which leads to the second point. I understood Neal's point very clearly. For the past 8 years we have had many come on here and bash America, its policies, and its actions. Some posters were citizens of the US, others were not. Almost invariably, the criticism was centered around George Bush and his "conservative" views. Calling him conservative is definitely NOT accurate however The point being made was that so many want to come here and bash our home - a country that - while some of us may not agree with its path - we love and hold dear, same as many of you do with your nations. Yet as soon as the "evil george bush" (who was legally elected via our constitutional process) is gone, we are told by these same people, again both foreign and domestic, that every other country and government should never even be glanced at, much less be put to outside scrutiny. Sorry - but that is the definition of hypocritical. And - to top it all off - these same people - particularly those residents of other countries - come here to TELL US what we are supposed to do - which is NOT TELL ANYONE ELSE what to do. Funny - your coming here to tell us not to do exactly what your here doing. And then you can't see the hypocrasy? As for the comment that the evil george bush caused more death and harm than the dictators of places like Iran, Iraq, China, etc..... Apparently the liberal drug policies of europe have finally had the affect intended - killing every usable brain cell in the citizenry. Saddam Hussein and his sons were responsible for many genocidal acts while in power. Iran currently is training and supplying insurgents that are in Iraq and (thru Syria) hezbollah who targets civilians as well. But hey, we can ignore that right? Not to mention the civilian repression that is rampant in places like Iran, Korea, China, etc. What's even funnier is these same people and countries they are from stand idly by while genocide in Darfur occurs. After all - its outside their borders - it doesnt matter. Where has the EU been since Darfur started? Oh - but you point the finger at us as if its our job to stop all the messes in the world - then when WE don't act you claim "well your selective about freedom based on whats in it for you". Again - I don't see the EU having a strong force there in the last year to stop it. Why? Because its not important to you - but its ok to point at someone else to say we are bad because we didnt go fix it while you all sit home lazy, fat and happy. OK - so its been more than a couple of points. Here comes another. Yes our public debt is somehere near 10 trillion. So for all the domestic liberals who screamed about bush spending way too much - how come I don't hear you all screaming about Obama's admission that his FIRST YEAR in office his budget will increase the deficit by 20% - or 2Trillion more. If that were to stay the same for 4 years - he will have grown the deficit by more than 150% above what the evil george bush did. *For reference - when George Bush took office in 2001 the Public Dept was around $5,674,178,209,886.86 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History...S._public_debt While I agree that George Bush was no friend to the economy or the public debt, if Obama doesnt increase his budgets one dime in the next four years - he will have added 8 Trillion to the debt in 4 years - almost DOUBLING it in one term. But hey, all you "Obama is the savior" people, I guess facts dont matter. For the record, I didn't like most of Bush's policies either. He was however, right on Iraq - though he handled it all wrong once the decision was made. He was wrong on the economy, illegal immigration and trade though. __________________ Good Hunting! Captain Haplo

01-25-09, 02:37 PM	#56
MothBalls Ace of the Deep Join Date: Aug 2006 Posts: 1,012 Downloads: 20 Uploads: 0	Back to the original topic....... Russia has always had the Alpha Male mentality. They do what they think is best for Russia, everyone else be damned. If you disagree you end up on the side of a milk carton or on the business end of an assassins silencer. If you're a Russian reporter and you haven't figured out that you can't get away with American journalism in Eastern Europe, then you're life expectancy will be shorter than your smarter counterparts. <looks over shoulder> I agree with everything Putin says and does.

01-25-09, 06:57 PM	#58
XabbaRus Navy Seal Join Date: Sep 2001 Posts: 5,330 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Well one it is only a select few who come here and bash the US, two Russia forcing the negotiations. Ukraine didn't pay its bill, it got cut off when it refused to pay the price everyone else was paying. That happens if I don't pay my gas bill when they put the price up. Most of us don't bash the US. I understand what Neal is saying but Russia gets enough criticism. The truth be told though half the journos in my opinion who report on Russia don't know jack about what they are saying, especially the BBC but they went down the pan a long time ago s***g the c* of the PC brigade..... __________________