Dec 7th

[Dread Knot]

Setting aside Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we firebombed 95% of the country's urban area to the ground. I think we got our revenge plus interest.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Setting aside Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we firebombed 95% of the country's urban area to the ground. I think we got our revenge plus interest.

While I don't hate modern Japan, I don't think "revenge" is the best way to put it. Quantifying casualties is a mistake, especially considering that our casualities were the result of a war we did NOT start.

[clayp]

Originally Posted by breadcatcher101

clayp, if you REALLY want to get your blood boiling read this: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Pri.../9780688143701

One of the most heart-rendering books I have ever read. I really feel for those who had to go through what they did. I've always felt the Japanese were not held fully accountable for their barbaric acts toward the Poe's.

Catcher I'm afraid if I read that book I would go out and shoot a couple...

[breadcatcher101]

Hey, that's what your deck gun's for--plus the 24 torpedoes at your service. No wonder I like this game.

My father-in-law was in the 1st marines during WW2. Was in a shallow fox hole with 2 of his buddies when a shell hit they were killed, he was only slightly wounded. Never reported the injury, but for the rest of his life every once in awhile a bit of coral would work its way up through his skin and his wife would get a pin and twezzers and pull it out.

My first wife's mother was 16 years old living in Manila when the Japanese invaded.

Both had a hate for the Japanese that never did die.

That was way before my time and I am open-minded about it all today, but I will never forget it.

[Aramike]

I have a fair amount of living family left who survived the war, and to the best of my knowledge, they've all let any hatred go.

Hating the Japanese for the sins of their ancestors is akin to someone saying I should pay reparations for the fact that my great-great-great-grandfather owned slaves.

It's even more absurd now considering that the warrior culture of the Japanese is practically a mere memory.

[Dread Knot]

Originally Posted by Aramike

It's even more absurd now considering that the warrior culture of the Japanese is practically a mere memory.

Replaced by a culture that has given us anime, Pokemon, and Hello Kitty. I wonder if we could go after them for that. :hmm:

Yes...I am kidding. It's still vastly preferably to what they had.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

Replaced by a culture that has given us anime, Pokemon, and Hello Kitty. I wonder if we could go after them for that. :hmm:

Yes...I am kidding. It's still vastly preferably to what they had.

LOL! I guess there are SOME reasons left to hate the Japanese...

[fireship4]

For those who have said they will be sinking some Japanese subs on the 7th - Please, you are talking about human lives. I guess I may be a hypocrite for saying that when I sink them myself in-game with a small amount of satisfaction on playing the "good side" etc., maybe.

Did I read somewhere the Japanese were forced (although it really should be a last resort) to war for economic reasons? Also it's worth considering the point that allowing pearl harbour to happen would have been a useful propaganda event to sway public opinion in favour of war.

To those who advocate the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki, I have yet to hear someone explain to me why the bombs could not be dropped off-shore or in tokyo bay or something. They were altitude triggered (one anyway i think).

And by the way weren't the Japanese sueing for peace at the time?


I have the same sentiment towards the posters above expressing hate for the japanese - afraid you "might go out and shoot a couple"? - **** me, sounds like an army candidate. I've heard "I just want to kill some pakis/muslims" or similar enough times as a reason to go and fight. Although the warrior culture was brutal in that respect, it is just that, another culture. Prisoners had given up fighting and lost all honour/respect. It was a different way of thinking and beautiful in some respects. I don't know if it was right, long discussion. Maybe not right to inflict it on others from a different culture.

[Hylander_1314]

No they weren't suing for peace. They planned to mobilize every effort to stop the Americans on the Home Island of Honshu with the motto of "our flesh agaist their steel". Estimates were 20 to 25 million Japanese, and 1 million Americans, maybe more for casualties. They planned on using women and children as human bombs, to kill and maim as many GIs as possible.

What pushed the "economic" issue to the forefront was the embargo of goods and materials to Japan since the Warlord run government refused to stop it hostile actions on the Chinese Mainland.

The attitude of the Japanese being some kind of victim here is revisionist garbage, as it's an attempt to make America out to be the bad guy again.

There was little loveloss between the American and Japanese forces. I think the same went for the Aussies and the Kiwis, as all the Allied forces sufferred unser Japanese rule when they surrenderred to the victorious Imperial Army.

The idea of dropping the bomb on open unpopulated areas was discussed, but the idea was dismissed as it was speculated that the Japanese would not be affected by it that way. As they weren't affected by just one bomb destroying a city. No would was received from the Japanese as they thought the Americans didn't have anymore bombs like that. After the second one was dropped is when they responded. What didn't know was that those two A Bombs were the only ones ready at the time, and it would be close to a year before another one would be ready to use.So in a sense, thre Americans with two A Bombs were bluffing. The bluff worked.

Of note though, more Japanes people died in the firebombings and more property was destroyed again by the firebombings with incendiary bombs than both A Bombs combined.

[Falkirion]

Fireship I take satisfaction in each and every merchant or IJN vessel I sink in SH4, and yes I was amongst those who said I'll go sink a couple on the 7th (Which I didn't, was busy playing World of Warcraft, that game is sucking the life out of me)

I harbor no ill will to modern Japan. They're a great bunch of people and have given me much more (Anime, movies, manga and most importantly cuisine) than they have ever taken.

^ Highlander explained it better than I ever could hope to.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by fireship4

For those who have said they will be sinking some Japanese subs on the 7th - Please, you are talking about human lives. I guess I may be a hypocrite for saying that when I sink them myself in-game with a small amount of satisfaction on playing the "good side" etc., maybe.

Did I read somewhere the Japanese were forced (although it really should be a last resort) to war for economic reasons? Also it's worth considering the point that allowing pearl harbour to happen would have been a useful propaganda event to sway public opinion in favour of war.

To those who advocate the bombing of Hiroshima/Nagasaki, I have yet to hear someone explain to me why the bombs could not be dropped off-shore or in tokyo bay or something. They were altitude triggered (one anyway i think).

And by the way weren't the Japanese sueing for peace at the time?


I have the same sentiment towards the posters above expressing hate for the japanese - afraid you "might go out and shoot a couple"? - **** me, sounds like an army candidate. I've heard "I just want to kill some pakis/muslims" or similar enough times as a reason to go and fight. Although the warrior culture was brutal in that respect, it is just that, another culture. Prisoners had given up fighting and lost all honour/respect. It was a different way of thinking and beautiful in some respects. I don't know if it was right, long discussion. Maybe not right to inflict it on others from a different culture.

Human lives are not lost in roleplaying yourself in a video game from another era.

In any case, the Japanese's economic hardships were heavily due to their imperialistic ambitions. Just because they went to war for economic reasons doesn't mean those very reasons weren't brought on via another, more sinister plot.

Also, I find nothing whatsoever beautiful about a warrior culture. Honor as a personal matter is one thing; used in the way the Japanese leaders did it is merely a form of brainwash. Getting young people to throw away their promising lives for a hit on a naval vessel in the name of honor is NOT beautiful, IMHO. I believe it weakens a culture. Especially in that the very struggle they were engaged in was brought upon by those very manipulative leaders.

In one sense, however, you are correct in drawing a parallel between the Japanese of WWII and modern extremist Muslims. Both cultures believe in the direct trade of lives for arbitrary military gain. Both cultures also lost/are losing wars due to this strategy. Throwing away your best, brightest, and most committed personnel is a tactical and strategic error, all preconcieved notions of "honor" aside.

[Dread Knot]

I think the best arguement against the idea that dropping the atomic bomb on 'test' area to impress the Japanese into surrender was the fact that the Japanese generals dispatched to Hiroshima to inspect the post attack damage actually denied the fact that it was an atomic bomb which had destroyed the city, and cited the claims the Americans had such a weapon as 'propaganda'. Luckily, for the Japanese, the Emperor finally grew a backbone and decided to stand and speak against this militaristic nonsense. Even then some generals attemped a half-hearted kidnapping coup which happily was foiled.

A mindset like that belongs in the dustbin of history.

[Hylander_1314]

Originally Posted by Dread Knot

I think the best arguement against the idea that dropping the atomic bomb on 'test' area to impress the Japanese into surrender was the fact that the Japanese generals dispatched to Hiroshima to inspect the post attack damage actually denied the fact that it was an atomic bomb which had destroyed the city, and cited the claims the Americans had such a weapon as 'propaganda'. Luckily, for the Japanese, the Emperor finally grew a backbone and decided to stand and speak against this militaristic nonsense. Even then some generals attemped a half-hearted kidnapping coup which happily was foiled.

A mindset like that belongs in the dustbin of history.

As long as the history of that mentality is not forgotten.

[Dread Knot]

Aye. The mentality that would sacrifice a 69,000 battleship and a crew of 2,000 young sailors on a pointless and futile mission is certainly still alive today.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Aramike

In any case, the Japanese's economic hardships were heavily due to their imperialistic ambitions. Just because they went to war for economic reasons doesn't mean those very reasons weren't brought on via another, more sinister plot.

Absolutely correct. The United States was the main source of Japan's oil and steel, and we placed an embargo on them because of their war in China, which had been going on since 1937, and especially because of the 'Rape of Nanking' (now Nanjing), in which somewhere between 150,000 and 300,000 Chinese civilians and Prisoners Of War were executed by Japanese soldiers over a space of six weeks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre

Newer evidence has turned up that the Japanese killed over 500,000 civilians in the months leading up to the Nanjing 'incident'.
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/20...nt_7236237.htm

The Japanese were going after oil in Malaysia and French Indo-China (Vietnam) and the real point of Pearl Harbor was to keep the US from interfering with those plans.