How to be a good Democrat

[baggygreen]

but really, is 5/6000 dead americans a lot, over almost 6 years of warfare??

i know i'll get jumped on by a lot of peolpe for saying so, but lets be honest - 5/6000 people were killed in an hour on the western front. More than once.

different times, yes, but its still a war. and regardless of whether you think its justified or not, it IS a war. people will die. The media started getting involved in vietnam and its only gotten worse since.

Frankly, I suspect things will have gone much quicker if there had been no media presence in affers and in the sandpit, but its speculation, which is always fun, no matter where you sit on an issue!

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

Sadr militia is in ruins? Oh I don't know about that, it was the US who put the Shia in control in Iraq, you really think they are in ruins?

So are you going to resurrect the 1 - 2 mil dead that the war in Iraq has caused? And do you really think the war in Iraq is over now? That's what was expected in -03 and it didn't quite happen. And with the majority of US troops pulling out in -09 or -10 the latest I think we can be pretty secure (or unsecure) in the notion that there will be similar attacks against them to the end of the US presence in Iraq.

The final bodycount for US will be around 5, 6 thousand +, including the coalition & the mercenaries ~ 6000 - 7000. Dunno about you but to me, that's a lot of dead folks. For the US ally Iraqi troops, god only knows. Tens of thousands? And in the end Iraq will continue to be a pretty unstable place with the table set up for a new dictator to step up.

Yes. They are pretty much in ruins. The insurgencies can't even mount a meaningful resistance to the government currently in place. And sorry, I won't play your game. War is bloody. There will be loss of life. We know that. It's pretty much a dead argument at this point as Iraq is looking like it will be a fully functioning government from here on. It won't be the wasted mission and humiliating defeat you were looking forward to for us.

Oh yea and in Afghanistan it looks like the Taliban are getting their act together and inflicting serious casualties against the troops there. I have a buddy there with the UN troops and according to him it don't look too good.

Oooh, yeah. Go Taliban!!!! (Sarcasm off) What kind of a whack job are you? Getting their act together???!?!?! Oh, I'm sure you would be so happy if US troops were taking a bloody beating. And how the Democrats could use it as a campaign issue. Woop-dee-doo. Again, it's a crap argument. There is nothing coming from that theater that indicates loss. On the other hand there has been plenty of good news. I'm sure any good news of course just breaks your little heart.

Originally Posted by baggygreen

but really, is 5/6000 dead americans a lot, over almost 6 years of warfare??

i know i'll get jumped on by a lot of peolpe for saying so, but lets be honest - 5/6000 people were killed in an hour on the western front. More than once.

different times, yes, but its still a war. and regardless of whether you think its justified or not, it IS a war. people will die. The media started getting involved in vietnam and its only gotten worse since.

Frankly, I suspect things will have gone much quicker if there had been no media presence in affers and in the sandpit, but its speculation, which is always fun, no matter where you sit on an issue!

Well you're comparing the Iraq war to WW 1 or 2 then yes, it's not that type of a deal. But if you compare it to, say, the British occupation of India, a huge land with a hostile populace, then at least I can't say they've been too succesful.

Also, the American's aren't even calling it a war, it's "occupation", "insurgency", etc. So by admitting that it is a war would be the first step.

Sea Demon,

Iraq is looking like it will be a fully functioning government from here on.

Oh yea, repeat that mantra 100 times before going to sleep, it might help. No but seriously, you believe that? Let me ask you this question, they always ask these questions from the people in favour of Bush, what would have to happen in order for you think that the Iraqi government would have failed? Say, if they were to acquire WMD's and use them against a minority or some stuff like that, would that qualify as a failure? It's just that I'm intrigued by these pro-war/Bush people as to what their rationale for the war actually is. So right now it's "a fully functioning government" in Iraq, ok then. At one time Saddam was one and he didn't have any WMD's so it seems that the US is kinda going in circles here while people are dying by the million. But maybe that's the point, eh?

Oh no, I think the whole Afghanistan - situation has been a terrible tragedy and the 'media blackout' concerning bad news about civilian casualties etc. from that theather of war only makes me more worried that sheet is hitting the fan there in a major way. The fact that the UN has been called as the mess-cleaners and are now taking casualties is another example of a failure by the US-led coalition.

[baggygreen]

the tough thing about civvie casualty claims is that at the moment the main enemy is fighting an insurgency - they dress like the civvies, fire from within civvie areas, and then use any civvy deaths to discredit the "good guys" for want of a better term.

you kill an insurgent, he's a dead insurgent. now if someone takes away his weapon and gets a camera, he's a dead civvy now, ripe for the propaganda war.

its tough!

thanks for the laughs tho mikhayl! (your antics, rather than links)

[mrbeast]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

left leaning/anti-Western tendencies.

Nice generalisation there Sea Demon

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

would have to happen in order for you think that the Iraqi government would have failed? Say, if they were to acquire WMD's and use them against a minority or some stuff like that, would that qualify as a failure? It's just that I'm intrigued by these pro-war/Bush people as to what their rationale for the war actually is. So right now it's "a fully functioning government" in Iraq, ok then. At one time Saddam was one and he didn't have any WMD's so it seems that the US is kinda going in circles here while people are dying by the million. But maybe that's the point, eh?

Oh no, I think the whole Afghanistan - situation has been a terrible tragedy and the 'media blackout' concerning bad news about civilian casualties etc. from that theather of war only makes me more worried that sheet is hitting the fan there in a major way. The fact that the UN has been called as the mess-cleaners and are now taking casualties is another example of a failure by the US-led coalition.

Yeah, whatever OTH. I've listened to people with your point of view for years. And it's only the same crap over and over again. Tell all the above to your pillow tonight. Because I stopped listening to you types long ago. Your comments are merely the same broken record which doesn't even address the successes we've seen. Yours is merely the view being fed to you by a media that wants the disastrous results you seek. You are merely a person who craves failure and defeat. But yes, Iraq is now a functioning government. The country is being rebuilt. They have revenue incoming. The insurgencies there have failed. The US military and allies have been successful. You and yours have been a failure at selling the idea of "failure". It's why you don't hear the Democrats talk about it as an issue. They can't because they sounded just like you before the end of last year.

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Good news from Iraq :............ Oh wait ... uh, nevermind

And you're blind if you want a nice, clean, easy war with no casualties. It ain't ever going to happen. You're trying to drive opinion based on these weak links of yours. As if they tell the entire story? And as if they're not driven to create a story? I would tell you where you can go, but you're already there.

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

Yeah, whatever OTH. I've listened to people with your point of view for years. And it's only the same crap over and over again. Tell all the above to your pillow tonight. Because I stopped listening to you types long ago. Your comments are merely the same broken record which doesn't even address the successes we've seen. Yours is merely the view being fed to you by a media that wants the disastrous results you seek. You are merely a person who craves failure and defeat. But yes, Iraq is now a functioning government. The country is being rebuilt. They have revenue incoming. The insurgencies there have failed. The US military and allies have been successful. You and yours have been a failure at selling the idea of "failure". It's why you don't hear the Democrats talk about it as an issue. They can't because they sounded just like you before the end of last year.

So we can expect the rationale for the war and the criteria for 'victory' to keep changing in the future too? With the only constant being that there can't be anything wrong about US who started the whole thing? Ok then, that kind of answers my question right there.

And yes, the media in my country at least takes the occasional critical view about the wars, probably not the case where you live.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by OneToughHerring

So we can expect the rationale for the war and the criteria for 'victory' to keep changing in the future too? With the only constant being that there can't be anything wrong about US who started the whole thing? Ok then, that kind of answers my question right there.

And yes, the media in my country at least takes the occasional critical view about the wars, probably not the case where you live.

It hasn't changed. The criteria for victory has been the same. It's been the people who've been pushing "failure" that have been moving the goalposts all along. Now that we're actually seeing success in both theaters, we're not hearing much in the mainstream media. And the biggie for us here is that the Democrats cannot even discuss it because their own words will come back to eat them alive. You're still arguing about why we went there. You're in a time warp. My questions about people who make the arguments like you make, were answered over a year ago.

I don't know where you live, but the U.S. media is highly critical and biased against U.S. interests in this war. They are quick to report bad, and downplay any good news. The fact is, we have to search for the good here. The fact that we hear less about these wars, especially right now during election season, proves that the stories reporting good news are valid.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

Which good news are you talking about ? The interest is genuine, because I keep seeing only articles about talebans winning ground in Afghanistan, reporting more civilian deaths than taleban deaths, and on a side note the most deadly attack carried on French troops since ... 2001. In Iraq it's all about the so-called timetable which actually allows US troops to keep bases indefinitely, government preparing lots of reform without any of the people being aware of 1/10th of it all, the list goes on and on.

I just googled up several with a simple search showing progress. I won't post any links as I don't have the energy. It's simple enough for anybody to do. Of course there is also a war going on all the same so you're going to get bad as well. But you of course don't wish to see or offer a fair assesment, just like our worthless media, so you will focus and highlight noithing but bad. And claim happily defeat. Even though it's trash. That's OK. It's what I've come to expect from some. I know you're biased. And grossly misinformed. I was in your country during Bastille. I was in Nice, and got a nice little perspective of the uninformed views by your countrymen regarding the USA. Alot of people in your neck of the woods think they're informed because they've seen Michael Moore movies. No kidding. The ones I talked to offered that up to me. What a bunch of imbeciles. At any rate, I'm not surprised by your biased and uininformed views. It's what you're fed over there. I saw what they give to you first-hand.

[Tchocky]

Damn French need to deflate their ego, and get informed about the world. This insult-without-knowledge won't stand.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Damn French need to deflate their ego, and get informed about the world. This insult-without-knowledge won't stand.

Yes. They do.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Mikhayl

So, you don't "have the energy" to do something as simple as copy/pasting a few links to good news from non biased and well informed medias, but you find the energy to tell me that you know my information sources are "biased and uninformed" because you met some of my countrymen during a stay in France. Fair enough.

The point is, it wouldn't matter to you. With guys like you, it's a waste of time so I refuse. And yes, the many people I talked to during Bastille in both Nice and Cannes about the war, the USA, 9/11, Michael Moore movies were absolute dolts. I saw no "enlightenment" in Europe this time around. It's largely the same crud we get here. I've seen your news first-hand and the crap we get here. The fact that neither Iraq nor Afghanistan is not being used by Democrats and the media right now during election season has alot of significance. If you truly understood anything about the USA, you would know that.

[Tchocky]

Everyone's talking about war over there. Dems mostly about Iraq/Afghanistan, GOP mostly about Vietnam.

[Sea Demon]

Originally Posted by Tchocky

Everyone's talking about war over there. Dems mostly about Iraq/Afghanistan, GOP mostly about Vietnam.

None of the current war is the campaign issue they hoped it would be. Democrats were hoping for defeat and humiliation. And they're not getting it. No, they aren't really talking about it. They're trying feebly to trash Sarah Palin as a campaign issue. McCain surprisingly is not really trumpeting his Vietnam service all that much.

[Tchocky]

Originally Posted by Sea Demon

McCain surprisingly is not really trumpeting his Vietnam service all that much.

You're joking, right?