So, what does this say about the gun owners debate?

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by 1480

jpm1: I kind of get the jist of what you are saying. As a man that has to run towards the armed maniac, my kevlar vest will more then likely keep me alive if that armed maniac is armed with a handgun or shotgun. A hunting rifle for the most part are either bolt action or semi-automatic BUT use a military rifle round. Kevlar vests will just keep a person's intestines from pouring out of the exit wound. The second thing that scares me about long guns, the men armed with them, tend to be very proficient with them!

Handgun yes, shotgun with buckshot - no. Any hunting rifle - no. Doesn't matter, kevlar, unless full combat armor as used in Iraq, will not do 'anything' against any type of weapon that isn't a handgun. So that is not an argument. Combat armor stops an AK round just fine, but shatters on impact so you get to stop one or two rds in total. Doubt it will stop a hunting rd however. Dragonskin may be the only armor that can save you from pretty much all rds from rifles, assuming they are not large caliber.

-S

[jpm1]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

They used a hunting shotgun instead. No military rifle was involved. So what is your point?

On top of this, every shot fired from a hunting rifle would have been more deadly resulting in less injuries and more deaths. Take your pick! And anyone who knows his stuff can fire a hunting rifle nearly as fast as a semi auto! I have some vid on that - good stuff!

-S

what does take your pick mean ? concerning myself i was talking of high rate of fire weapons


(Columbine cameras)

Originally Posted by 1480

jpm1: I kind of get the jist of what you are saying. As a man that has to run towards the armed maniac, my kevlar vest will more then likely keep me alive if that armed maniac is armed with a handgun or shotgun. A hunting rifle for the most part are either bolt action or semi-automatic BUT use a military rifle round. Kevlar vests will just keep a person's intestines from pouring out of the exit wound. The second thing that scares me about long guns, the men armed with them, tend to be very proficient with them!

i agree long rifles are probably one of the most powerful of the weapons a personel can hold but it's the only way to hunt games "properly" . the authorities hold the excuse of their rate of fire to allow their selling more easily however i still think it's more difficult to perpetrate a massacre with a 7.65 mm long rifle which needs to extract the bullet find the other bullet reload , ream , aim than a M16 which has ready to use 20 rounds magazines (or any automatic weapon with magazines) and doesn't need a precise aiming

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by jpm1

i agree long rifles are probably one of the most powerful of the weapons a personel can hold but it's the only way to hunt games "properly" . the authorities hold the excuse of their rate of fire to allow their selling more easily however i still think it's more difficult to perpetrate a massacre with a 7.65 mm long rifle which needs to extract the bullet find the other bullet reload , ream , aim than a M16 which has ready to use 20 rounds magazines (or any automatic weapon with magazines) and doesn't need a precise aiming

Well, I have a video for you if I can still find it! You'd be surprised what one could do with a long rifle!

-S

[1480]

Handgun yes, shotgun with buckshot - no. Any hunting rifle - no. Doesn't matter, kevlar, unless full combat armor as used in Iraq, will not do 'anything' against any type of weapon that isn't a handgun. So that is not an argument. Combat armor stops an AK round just fine, but shatters on impact so you get to stop one or two rds in total. Doubt it will stop a hunting rd however. Dragonskin may be the only armor that can save you from pretty much all rds from rifles, assuming they are not large caliber.

-S[/quote]

Mr. Steed, I respectfully disagree with your shotgun buckshot argument. A type II-A, II and III-A (soft body armor) will stop the pellets, from a shotgun shell. Mind you it will not tickle.... The rigid and semi rigid level or type III and IV, that you refer to is not practical for everyday law enforcement duties.

I'm a bit confused, the 7.62x39mm round that is used in an AK, isn't it for all intents and purposes (size and speed) a .308 winchester round?


jpm1: In regards to what you posit. Yes, the guns used in Columbine, VT, and closer to home, my former school, NIU, the semi automatics used, facilitated the large casulties caused in each of those tragedies. But, there is an overlooked common theme to each of these mass murders that is unlike what happened in Texas: the mass grouping of targets. Sorry if that sounds cold and crass but it's the truth. "Spray and pray" is our stock answer when a scenario is thrown out at roll call but it applies to each of these events. The survivors of these horrible incidents just happened to be behind the unlucky ones. If a rifle round was used, then you better hope you are behind 3 people. Trying to say one is better then the other is comparing which poison works quicker. They all kill.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by 1480

Mr. Steed, I respectfully disagree with your shotgun buckshot argument. A type II-A, II and III-A (soft body armor) will stop the pellets, from a shotgun shell. Mind you it will not tickle.... The rigid and semi rigid level or type III and IV, that you refer to is not practical for everyday law enforcement duties.

I'm a bit confused, the 7.62x39mm round that is used in an AK, isn't it for all intents and purposes (size and speed) a .308 winchester round?

A II-A + might stop it, though you are getting into the bulkyness of a law enforcement type vest. I agree with you on that one. I won't say you won't breaka rib in the process though.

7.62x39 is not a 308. Its much shorter. Enters the body as a small calibre handgun round, entering and exiting with minimal trauma. The reason it always exits is it over-penetrates big time.

-S

[1480]

You are correct about the dimensions on the 7.62 but I kind of simplfied the comparison. I meant diameter.

I've been wearing a level II since day one. My first was a point blank that was like wearing a wooden placard. The 2nd has been much nicer, the range of motion, flexibility and weight are night and day. Been debating between another II or a IIIA as my next one, or another II with a shock plate.

[Yahoshua]

Link to PDF guide to basic selection and application of Personal Body Armor:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf


Link to an old retired farts website with general testing of ammo penetration:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/


Browse and read at your own liking.

[Yahoshua]

Originally Posted by 1480

Yahoshua- yeah, had I've had a front row ticket to the greatest show on earth for 16 years now. My capacity on the job has changed, and as much as I've seen us get thrown to the wolves by our media, citizens and higher ups, I wouldn't change places with anyone.

Come on down to Texas, we could use experienced officers down here.

[1480]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Link to PDF guide to basic selection and application of Personal Body Armor:

http://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/nij/189633.pdf


Link to an old retired farts website with general testing of ammo penetration:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/


Browse and read at your own liking.

The second one is a great resource, thanks much Yahoshua . I've got the first on my HD. I know for a fact they work. A good friend was working midnights in the same district I work now. He went to stop a guy on foot for an ordinance violation. The rectal duct had a .357 crotched and when the officer put a hand on the guy's shoulder to get his attention he ups the magnum, which was loaded with .357 rounds, punched the barrel into his sternum and fired. It was so close it charred the area around the bullet hole in his shirt. The vest saved his life.

Thanks for the offer, happy with being a sgt now. The less work (yeah right) more money thing has spoiled me.

[jpm1]

http://www.hawgsmoke.com/assets/video/IFF.HEAT.OFF.wmv

Shots with the 577 T-rex rifle
http://www.hawgsmoke.com/assets/vide...coil-rifle.wmv

[claybirdd]

I own a Remington 700, 30-06. I guarantee you even at 500 yds a 180 grain round will go through a Law Enforcement vest like butter. I would never want to be hit by a high powered round in combat, there would be extreme tissue damage. Also the 7.62 comes in many varieties of length. The AK round is actually quite short while the 7.62x59 (.308 NATO) is a very nice cartrige for snipers. It is the preferd round for the Marines, though the Army uses the .300 Win mag( ).

I also own a 9mm for self defense though I am currently on the hunt for a .45 USP. I have serious doubts sbout the 9mm's stopping power. not saying it is a deadly round but knock down powere is of upmost importance to me.

[Platapus]

Rem 700 is a very nice weapon indeed.

[FIREWALL]

You guys jump the track better than any train ever will. :p :rotfl:


I thought the topic of thread was the relationship of easy gun ownership and suicide.

[Platapus]

and I think we pretty much discussed that topic fully. So we move on to another related topic.

[Frame57]

Originally Posted by jpm1

in France the only weapons which are in free sale are the 22LR and hunting guns caliber 12 , 20 which have a limited range and rifles which can be lethal but which rate of fire is limited even for these weapons you need to declare them at the town hall and during the transport the weapon has to be taken to pieces or jammed with a security system which jams the trigger for example . if you want a dangerous weapon like a M16 for example your need to ask for an autorization at the prefecture and only if your police record is virgin and if it appears that your are somebody stable on a psycological level the autorization's given under some condition use in your property or a in shooting range only

Good to know! It does shed a bit of light why the Germans occupied France so easily. The right to arm bears was ordained so that Yogi and Boo Boo could remain free.