Liveleak under threat from Islam!

[caspofungin]

Despite being 600 years younger Islams body count is millions bigger than Christianitys.

now, that's ignorance.

subman1, i'm a muslim, and i'm pretty bright, so easy on the crass generalizations. and skybird posting an opinion that you agree with doesn't make him the expert on the subject.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

now, that's ignorance.

subman1, i'm a muslim, and i'm pretty bright, so easy on the crass generalizations. and skybird posting an opinion that you agree with doesn't make him the expert on the subject.

Damm right!

Even world war one and two where sold by both sides as a Christian war.
Battle cries of "god save the king" etc. Onward Christian soldiers. "God's on our side".

The numbers killed in the name of the Christian god are equally immeasurable.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

Even world war one and two where sold by both sides as a Christian war.
Battle cries of "god save the king" etc. Onward Christian soldiers. "God's on our side".

The numbers killed in the name of the Christian god are equally immeasurable.

That's just bull Letum. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Shintos, Sikhs, even athiests, they ALL fought for their respective sides in great numbers, so calling WW1 and 2 "Christian wars" discredits the sacrifice of millions.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

That's just bull Letum. Christians, Jews, Muslims, Buddists, Hindus, Shintos, Sikhs, even athiests, they ALL fought for their respective sides in great numbers, so calling WW1 and 2 "Christian wars" discredits the sacrifice of millions.

I am not saying that there where not any people from other faiths in the armies.

I am saying that people where told that god was on their side.
Churches where used as places to promote and glorify war.
Christian rhetoric was used in propaganda and songs.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

I am not saying that there where not any people from other faiths in the armies.

It was more than just the odd non christian in the ranks Letum. There were entire armies made up of non-Christian faiths. Stop trying to minimize their participation.

I am saying that people where told that god was on their side.
Churches where used as places to promote and glorify war.
Christian rhetoric was used in propaganda and songs.

So what. The rhetoric of a dozen other major religions used in a similar manner. You don't think that the Japanese or the Soviets or the Turks or the Chinese or the Indians or the Arabs marched off to war singing Onward Christian Soldiers do you?

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

It was more than just the odd non christian in the ranks Letum. There were entire armies made up of non-Christian faiths. Stop trying to minimize their participation.

So what. The rhetoric of a dozen other major religions used in a similar manner. You don't think that the Japanese or the Soviets or the Turks or the Chinese or the Indians or the Arabs marched off to war singing Onward Christian Soldiers do you?

I am not trying to minimise it at all! Even Hitlers SS divisions had Hindus, Muslims and Athiests in the ranks.
Of course non-christian nations did not promote war through christianity!

The vast majority of concientious objectors where Christian.
The rhetoric of all other major religions used in a similar manner at one time or another. Every major religion has had vast amounts of blood shead in it's name.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

I am not trying to minimise it at all! Even Hitlers SS divisions had Hindus, Muslims and Athiests in the ranks.
Of course non-christian nations did not promote war through christianity!

The vast majority of concientious objectors where Christian.
The rhetoric of all other major religions used in a similar manner at one time or another. Every major religion has had vast amounts of blood shead in it's name.

I see what you're trying to say Letum but you happened to choose as your examples two wars which, because of their extreme mult-national, multi-continental nature have had the least to do with religion out of all of mans wars throughout history, so you really can't call them "Christian wars"!, i'm just sayin...

Getting back to the discussion at hand though. One aspect of the present conflict is that our enemy is trying to make it a religious war exclusively and by doing so gain the support (and exert control over) the entire population of Muslims. Our side is trying to keep the war non-sectarian in nature but that hampers our efforts considerably since we're outsiders and any move we make can be cast as anti-religious in nature.

I have always said that the problem of Islamic terrorism ultimately has to be solved by Muslims themselves. As long as they provide shelter and passive support to the bin Ladens of the world no western army however powerful is going to be able to weed them out completely.

[Letum]

I wouldn't say it is exclusively religious on the Arab side.
There is a hell of a lot of political, nationalistic, cultural, economic and racial stuff going
on as well.

Religion is just the vehicle it all rides upon, in the same way that the crusades had far
more to do with internal power struggles and socio-politics in Europe than religion.

[August]

Originally Posted by Letum

I wouldn't say it is exclusively religious on the Arab side.
There is a hell of a lot of political, nationalistic, cultural, economic and racial stuff going
on as well.

Agreed. What i meant by exclusively is using the religion as the primary vehicle by which to obtain and maintain mainstream Muslim acceptance or at least toleration. After all without Islam to justify his actions bin Laden becomes just another garden variety psychopath easily ignored by his fellow Arabs. That's not as easily done once he dons the mantle of protector of the faith.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

After all the **** in recent times that Muslims have been through, they finally get their chance to fire back. They're under attack with stereotypes and hate, although they can be the same way (but honestly, the Muslim community is under serious attack at this point). If you actually lived the life of a Muslim, then I'm fairly sure you'd understand why they fight for their beliefs (not just because the Quaran says they should; the Muslims in general suffer from extensive problems in social affairs, and they're becoming the new version of the black man during the 1950's and 1960's, discriminated against for their beliefs).

That is hard to believe, since since the early 60s catholic church implemented an official policy of massively bending towards islam and trying to engage it in dialogue, and not even demanding reciprocity in "negotiation" results: instead the West for 40 years is making concessions and concessions for muslims living in the West, that never were answered on equal term from Muslim nations. I am aware that colonialism did some harm to Muslim communities in their native lands, and created instable and artificial constructions like for example Iraq. Nevertheless it is also an issue of capacity and potentials a culture has to offer, and the muslim world since the medieval fell behind, since it's ideological basis did massively hinder it to keep up with the accelerating developement of europe, and thus it wasted the advantages it one held over europe, regarding medicine, optics, and quite some more things. But this cultural impotency is a result from Islam putting it all into stasis, it is not he bad europeans that all of a sudden found a magic key to lock araba culture. Before Muhammad, Arabia was fully multicultural, and had best starting coinditioons be come today'S trading and cultural hotspot and centre, but instead... Blame the ideological basis that made this. Don't mess it up and claim others to be responsible for it. As I see it, Islam today demands to be given the fruits from other culture's work and accievements for free, while refusaing to work for it, or to chnage itself, but de,manding to impose it's own impotency onto others that should give it what makes them superior in science and economy and social systems etc.

I don'T buy your crocodile'S tears ypu shed about yourself. To the greater part, I see you people being responsible all by yourself for the fatalistic stagnation your societies were locked up in - by Islam. Nevertheless I really must say that I see a many muslim people running around here in Germany with a big mouth as if the world could not be without them, and as if their is no life than living in their home countries.

If Islam is so fantastic a culture, why did it strip you off your chnaces, why did so amny of you moving to the West, why are your native societies so archaic and regarding many potentials: so inferior, then?

Sorry if I sound a bit personal, but I am getting angry if Islamic people tell me that we are responsible for all what is bad in their home nations, but rejecting any responsibility their own culture has in making these nations what they are: societies run by the thinking and social motives ordered by islam. If you want to make these laqnds a better place to live - start to critically analyse the ideology these places are suffering from, since many centuries.

BTW, muslims hardly "fire back" in recent times. They have been on aggressive offensive for the better part of history and aucnhed the longest, most far-reaching military conquest that is known in human history. And when three major attacks onto europe nevertheless saw their demand to subjugate europe as well failing and turned them being frustrated over not getting what they wanted - I couldn't care less. europeans managed to get behind the inquisition, and the dark age, and the neutralised arabia'S cultural superiority, and took the lead, and set the pace, and became the global centre of gravity until recently. We banned the power of the religious dogma and the church. If you want to earn the fruits of these efforts, take the effort to sow yourself, and confront your relgion like europe confronted it's own. just don'T demand to be given the fruits for free without changing yourself at all, and not wporking for it, and even demanding us to accept you in our homes when your lands do not give us and other foreigners not the same rights and freedoms you enjoy here in return. islam is not your right to stay like you are, nor is it the remedy to your problems - Islam is the cause of your troubles you are in.

[Letum]

Originally Posted by August

Agreed. What i meant by exclusively is using the religion as the primary vehicle by which to obtain and maintain mainstream Muslim acceptance or at least toleration. After all without Islam to justify his actions bin Laden becomes just another garden variety psychopath easily ignored by his fellow Arabs. That's not as easily done once he dons the mantle of protector of the faith.

Quite true. If the middle east was populated by Buddhists, then we would be seeing
buddhist terrorists right now. (As alien as that might sound!).
The religious war is a product, rather than a cause.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Explain?

The personal attack on Stealth Hunter, and by implication other Muslim members.

[Takeda Shingen]

Joe is correct. This is getting far too personal. Pull it back, guys.

The Management

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by joea

The personal attack on Stealth Hunter, and by implication other Muslim members.

Hes the one that was going on Submans yard with RPGs.:p It referred also to Stealth Hunters previous lies about shooting an home intruder dead. Im still not sure what and who he is. He could be a confused second generation Iranian American teenager and not middle aged ex Iranian military as he claims, to me his credibility is zero for his admitted lying..

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

After all the **** in recent times that Muslims have been through, they finally get their chance to fire back. They're under attack with stereotypes and hate, although they can be the same way (but honestly, the Muslim community is under serious attack at this point). If you actually lived the life of a Muslim, then I'm fairly sure you'd understand why they fight for their beliefs (not just because the Quaran says they should; the Muslims in general suffer from extensive problems in social affairs, and they're becoming the new version of the black man during the 1950's and 1960's, discriminated against for their beliefs).

It might have something to do with the fact that you never hear any objection from the muslim community about terrorist violence.
It might have something to do with the fact that what muslims do in western countries would get a westerner killed in a heartbeat in an muslim country.
It might have something to do with the fact that muslims in western countries think that that country should change it's way of life and laws to suit them.
It might have something to do with muslims making demands and take but never give.
It might have something to do with the belief that if muslims want to live like in their country they should move their butts back to their country.
It might have something to do with muslims come to a western country but demand that that host country fall back to a muslim way of life and arcane laws.
It might have something to do with muslims come to my country and preach hate against me in my own back yard!
Who is under assault here?