Turmoil in financial markets, FED cuts 3/4 in emergency move

[Peto]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

If I were you people I'd be more worried about a mass panic among the populace.

Recalling how the Great Depression actually came about was by panic-mongering and the people's overreaction actually caused the stock market to crash. While buying stocks and bonds are all great and wonderful, it'd be worthwhile to also keep some more flexible currency with you; namely gold.

Gold is an undisputed trading standard for the world market and while it may lose some value in a market crash (or gain value, I'm not sure), it is guaranteed to be worth SOMETHING more than a piece of green cotton-paper.

Yep. You're spot on Yahoshua. And the roller-coaster ride the stock market has been on lately only serves to exacerbate those fears. Or perhaps is more a sign that they already are following more of an emotional track than a pragmatic one.

As for the gold, I was losing sleep because it made my matress too lumpy . Or maybe I couldn't afford it in the first place :hmm:.

[sonar732]

Well, here's the latest from CNN on the tax rebates. $300 extra per child, $600 for individual's, $1200 for families. Granted, the democrats had to give up the increased food stamps and unemployed benefits to be continued, but got the money to go to anyone who pays Social Security taxes.

[STEED]

Panic over the stock markets are back up, happy days are here again.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Gold is an undisputed trading standard for the world market and while it may lose some value in a market crash (or gain value, I'm not sure), it is guaranteed to be worth SOMETHING more than a piece of green cotton-paper.

Totally agree. That'S why my small emergency reserve is some real gold for sure, not just buying options, or other "papers". Paper is cheap, but gold weighs heavy.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Don't need clues, I'm happy - without stocks and without getting guilty of exploiting my next. The system simply stinks, and that cannot be changed. For materialists and consuming capitalists, this of course is no obstacle that gives their conscience any worries. Pure capitalism does not know conscience, or other non-material implications. It only knows greed for more.

Nothing wrong with it. You have three choices in life, invest and make money, or borrow and lose money, or save and lose money. The people starving in Germany during its massive inflation in the past were of your mindset.

And what is the old-fashioned way that according to you I should have described?

Saving. Saving is a losing proposition since you don't keep up with inflation. Investing however gives cash infusions to your infrastrusture, resulting in increased output and profits which then is given back to you in increased wealth. SImple logic.

If an apple costs one thaler, and you have three apples: how many apples can you buy? You can make it very complicated a calculation and write complete libraries about it, you can make debts and live on tic and call that your wealth, you can spend more than you can earn, and write numbers on notes that have no value, and you can certainly consume everything for yourself and leave nothing for others, or future generations, and the mess you leave behind you can leave for those who survive your own death and need to adapt to the mess you created. sure, you can do that, it is jungle's law. See where it has led the world to. See the mess your nation's and the whole West's finances are.

Hahahaha! No mess is left. That is a pretty funny response though. Not quite sure you know where you were going with it because it fails to give anyone a point.

will you ever pay back your debts on federal, state and communal level? Those famous 9 trillion? You know the answer as well as I do : it will never happen. You even do not care. You call the status quo the wealth of your nation, for you benefit from it not being changed. I call it life on tic. But in an economic computer sim, this would be called the "unlimited money" cheat, or the "God mode". I played Sim City like that, caused it did not hurt anyone. In reality, it is something different with that thing of "not hurting anyone".

Sim CIty is your economic background? Why am I even talking to you on the subject? Our National debt is not a problem like you make it out to be, if you understand anything about economics. In 40 years, it will only be worth 5 cents on the dollar - a much easier sum to pay back, but you wouldn't know that because Sim City does not teach this to you. I've tried to tell you this point several times now, but you still don't get it I see.

what is clever on small, private scale, cannot be that wrong on greater scale. I hardly if ever use a credit card (why should I?), and do not spend mor emoney than I have. that I can expect to have more money available in the future does not chnage the fact that I have not avaiulable the money right now. so I am careful with my spending. That way I may not have a golden ring on my finger and a golden clock around my wrist - but I also have no debts, and nobody being able to point finger at me. And that is a much better feeling than just a golden ring and a golden clock!

As I said, not investing and what you save will dwindle to nothing. This is how we pay our National debt - its a rollercoaster that is purely a downhill proposition - and it will take you with it - what you save that is. WHomever told you to save your pennies should have their head checked. Prior to the 1940's, this may have worked, but it does not work in todays world. Invest, or you will become increasingly poor. That is your future.

-S

[Skybird]

Needless to point out that i am not impressed at all. And after the next 1929-style recession has come and passed, let's see who is better off - you with your 5000 dollars previously being spent for then worthless investement papers (an imoral practice anyway, always), or me with previously having spent my 5000 dollars in solid gold coins.

I just need to ask my grandparents to know the answer. Oh, I forgot - I did years ago. They said that gold served them better.

If you want to earn honest money, work yourself, Subman, or lease your services for a rent. That way you must not feel like a rogue! Maybe you will not make ten million that way, but when you die , that money will not be of use for you anyway. But the state of your conscience will.

What you see as the strength of our economic system - constant speeding-up, constant movement - others see as the source of troubles and the constant detoriation of life quality. It's only a logical consequence that stock exchange markets seem to have turned into casinos, then. And we all know who is winning in casinos - and that usually is not the players. And when the roulette wheel turns to fast, first you get dizzy, and then it breaks.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Needless to point out that i am not impressed at all. And after the next 1929-style recession has come and passed, let's see who is better off - you with your 5000 dollars previously being spent for then worthless investement papers (an imoral practice anyway, always), or me with previously having spent my 5000 dollars in solid gold coins.

I just need to ask my grandparents to know the answer. Oh, I forgot - I did years ago. They said that gold served them better.

If you want to earn honest money, work yourself, Subman, or lease your services for a rent. That way you must not feel like a rogue! Maybe you will not make ten million that way, but when you die , that money will not be of use for you anyway. But the state of your conscience will.

What you see as the strength of our economic system - constant speeding-up, constant movement - others see as the source of troubles and the constant detoriation of life quality. It's only a logical consequence that stock exchange markets seem to have turned into casinos, then. And we all know who is winning in casinos - and that usually is not the players. And when the roulette wheel turns to fast, first you get dizzy, and then it breaks.

Gold is a form of investment, though not a good one. It has roller-coaster rides that makes the stock market look flat. Its average is around 4% return too - barely keeping up with inflation.

Suit yourself, but I really think you should be helping out your country by investing in its companies. It will make your country stronger, and you will make money off it in the longrun.

A little thing you seem to forget - these investors do not have to invest..... Nor do they have to invest in their own country....

What you propose however is a dark ages if every thinked like you. Good thing they don't.

-S

[Skybird]

You don't buy gold to invest. You buy gold to install a reserve for times of emergency. In economical critical times, the gold price goes up. In times of inlation - the gold price goes up. In ntimkes of war - the gold price goes up. Currently, the gold price is at a record height. Demand in real metal cannot be satisfied. But if you buy options for gold only, you just buy worthless paper. at least paper that will be worthless if the fiancial system collapses. Better by real gold, for that simple reason. It's not an investement. It is a reserve.

Else, it goes up and down, yes, but in case of a crash gold is more worth than any printed paper. In the past 500 years, european nations saw repeated times when their finacial system totally broke down and the state finances were FUBAR, almost always excessive military spending and exhausting wars with their galloping costs were the cause for it - and exactly the same trend, the very same trend you see in the US today - state finances messed up, high debts, high inflation - but still excessive military spending. Austria-hungary saw that. Spain. France. Sweden. Italy. The german kingdoms. To some degree even Britain, before the financial "revolutions" during the napoleonic wars. They all have been there, they all suffered the same fate. Examples enough by which to learn not to make the same mistakes once again. But no... fools today think they are something better - and step into the same trap. It's the same kind of fools like over the past centuries.

Gold/jewelry and land property were the only values that had a value indeed in the following times of rebooting the nation, and reorganizing the economy and the tax system. but often the nation needed to reboot in even greater dependency from creditors, and/or banks. The Spanish'S and Habsburger's relation to the Dutch traders is a good example.

Obviously, the present has not learned anything from the past, although this mistake has been made over and over and over again - always with the same miserable outcome.

Man does not learn. Man clings to bad habits. Must be some rotten Gen. Just always calculate with man being unable to resist the temptation of quick and easy wealth - and your calculation will never faill.

[SUBMAN1]

Yep - fairly convinced that you will never get it.

Here is your roller coaster - Its been this high before, and it will be that low again. CHew on it. Then buy yourself a good mutual fund instead. Much more reliable. I forgot to mention - that $850 price in 1975 would be worth close to $3500 in todays dollars. $800 a ounce is nothing. Hasn't gained any value in years.

-S

[Skybird]

Your graph ends 2000. Gold just some days ago hit the 900-mark.

And the way the graph tries to make a projection is ridiculous, btw. Don't tell me you take such nonsense serious!

I hold a small reserve in gold, so you can rest assured that I take care of what's happening. In can expect a better monthly income in the future, and will spend even more ressources into stockpiling some real metal then, as a reserve. If possible I will wait for a slightly better time to buy, though.

[SUBMAN1]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Your graph ends 2000. Gold just some days ago hit the 900-mark.

And the way the graph tries to make a projection is ridiculous, btw. Don't tell me you take such nonsense serious!

I hold a small reserve in gold, so you can rest assured that I take care of what's happening. In can expect a better monthly income in the future, and will spend even more ressources into stockpiling some real metal then, as a reserve. If possible I will wait for a slightly better time to buy, though.

Try 2004 that is where the chart ends. You could have made a quick buck if you bought in 2003. Now it is a waste of time.

The graph show that if you held on to your gold for 30 years, you would have taken a massive loss. It is an accurate yearly gold price.

At 900 an ounce, it is just barely more worth than it was at $400 an ounce in 1995. Pathetic. It is hardly keeping up with the times.

-S

[SUBMAN1]

Just so you have numbers to compare here - $400 between 1995 to present. Gold went from $400 to $900 since 1995. If you found yourself a decent Mutual fund at 14% for the same period for your $400 and didn't touch it, your money would be worth about $2,200 in the same period.

This means I would outperform you by $1,100 to your $0 in the same period.

Gold is pathetic.

-S

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Just so you have numbers to compare here - $400 between 1995 to present. Gold went from $400 to $900 since 1995. If you found yourself a decent Mutual fund at 14% for the same period for your $400 and didn't touch it, your money would be worth about $2,200 in the same period.

This means I would outperform you by $1,100 to your $0 in the same period.

Gold is pathetic.

-S

Read again what I said on "reserve for emergnecy", and "investement". when your econmic sytem or the fiannce markets seriously collapses, you eventually will get one pound of butter for your hundred thoiusand buck investements and shares. but gold in such times always had remained some considerable value - more than printed money or shares.

Investements are a gamble, and a lot of private investors have lost more money in the recent two months than they have won in the past ten years. More than 200 billion dollars have been vaporized, disappeared, vanished, are gone, are lost. Several hundred billion more will follow in the next six months. Banks are still hesitent to admit to what degree they are affected by having lost billions and dozens of billions by investing in foul US credits, hoping for cheap and quiock profits. There will be many more confessions in the months to come, and shocking losses. Yes, stock markets are fun and are exciting, invest, people, invest into the ride of your life! If you are ruined at the end, never mind - at least you had some fun.

And i also made ethical arguments in the past, and indicated them shortly here again. If you demand a company to pay you a regular reward for nothign else than to lend a certain ammount of money, and then workers there must work all their life just to mplease their "owner", then this is not good or right or just or fair. It is parasitic behavior, and a modern interpretation and hiding strategy of slavery-like dependency.

and in the modern present, it is even worse: hedge fonds, amongst other investement fonds, mercylessly ruin healthy companies by making them to pick up credits even if they are not needed, take the income from these as profit, and then sell the whole company, leaving behind a once healthy company that now is a ruin and must be compensated by foreign taxes. This has become an pandemic plague worldwide. Also, investment fonds specialise in buying debt contracts from banks were a houseowner for example has signed a credit contract over let's say 20 years, and then demand him to pay back the leased money immediately instead paying back in rates over the remaining let's say 15 years. Many people cannot do that (that's why the took a credit...), and loose their house and /or company, with enormous and ruinous consequences from which families often never recover, and a total loss of past investements anyway. Again, this has become a major plague - and we are even just at the beginning. In germany, currently 60 such finds are operating. around 450 plan to become active soon, and 2000 others are slowly rallying at the starting line.

no concern for you. Most important is that you get your investement profits althoug not moving the smallest finger for it and do not any work yourself - yu let others work for you, and they must even pay for that priilege. Manna from heaven, that's how you see it. Sucking blood and leave the corpus behind - that's how i see it.

In Islam, such business methods are simply forbidden: no interest deals. One of the extremely rare opportunities when I agree with Islam on something. If going into it en detail I could argue that you also will not get support for such business from Jesus' or buddha's teachings. but for capitalistic materialists rejecting any non-material value, that is no concern, of course.

In two finance conferences last year, it were the US in both cases that prevented any international control and cutting back of hedge fonds, and prvented any counter c ontrol to this criminal, unethical, inhumane practices. Becasue the vast amjority of such investement banks - come from america, and so the system means damage for others, and profits for the US. No matter how the profit gets raised.

Quick profit, no matter at what cost, no matter how m peopple pay for it with their existence. - That is so stinking poor.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

You could have made a quick buck if you bought in 2003.

A quick buck. Exactly that is the mental problem here. "Quick buck".

You do not buy gold to make a quick buck. You buy gold to form an emergency reserve that does not suffer that dearly from breakdowns of the finacial system, inflation, or economic collapse or war.

Yes, I made a little profit from my gold reserve, if you think that is why I sell it know, you are wrong. That is not the goal of this exercise. It is about a reserve being present when i desperately need it. Shares at the stockmarket cannot give me that confidence - if it becomes dramatic, they could become worthless over night.

Profit-yearning and quick bucks - it is like a nasty virus including man's mind, infesting his brain and starting to eat there, until nothing is left than an empty hole, and all brain is gone.

Stability and reasonably economizing would be enough. And mabye modern life would not be ever accelerating, and not be so hectic and headless.

[SUBMAN1]

Let me put it this way, the type of collaspse you speak of means no more BMW, Mercedes, VW, Nothing! Your bag of gold will be worth about the same as my stocks - nothing since you will not be able to 'BUY' my bread or butter no matter how much gold you have! I'm am gonna eat it. In the end, you will have a shiney trinket that won't do a damn thing to feed you.

In the meantime, I will have enough to eat if that were to ever happen since I can afford to buy it now.

As I said - you still don't get it.

-S