Hiroshima

[bradclark1]

Originally Posted by w-subcommander

My point is what done is done. But Truman belongs to jail. It coul be his price for saving Americans lives and killing civilians. He had my respect as a greatest leader if he went to jail by his own will.

So Roosevelt and Churchill belonged in jail too for the strategic bombing of Germany?

[w-subcommander]

I have 27 years experience living in Europe
I have 9 years experience living in USA.
I visited about 30 countries in the world, when I was a seaman.
Definition of culture is different in Europeans mind and Americans mind.
I just made a quote that seems to me very interesting point of view.
Again I do not make a statement what is better or worser. Remember Einstein?
His theories?

[w-subcommander]

Originally Posted by bradclark1

So Roosevelt and Churchill belonged in jail too for the strategic bombing of Germany?

in idealistic point of view yes! at( least for 1 day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[Von Tonner]

w-subcommander
[quote]I m grateful to America for everything it done for me. It s a wonderful country with wonderfull people. I ll protect it against any enemy that will invide. But it is not the BEST in the world!!!!!!!!!!! It has its good side and bad side! Patriotism is to love the country with all its best and worse stuff. And to be patriot doesnt mean to be blind or have hearing problems. Did you ever read Patriotic Act?
And I quote myself:
My point is what done is done. But Truman belongs to jail. It coul be his price for saving Americans lives and killing civilians. He had my respect as a greatest leader if he went to jail by his own will.[quote]

w-subcommander I ask this with all due respect, were you born in the USA? If not, where are you from? And also, what in your opinion is the "best country" in the world?

[joea]

Originally Posted by w-subcommander

in idealistic point of view yes! at( least for 1 day!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Did you read ASWnut's stats? You make good points, and I said I thought another course should have been tried, but do you really think the 2 sides were morally equivalent?

[w-subcommander]

We all responsible for our actions.
Saddam paid his price for keeping country together. Was he a tyrant? Yes? Did he order to kill innocents? Yes. Did he keep country together? Yes.

[August]

Originally Posted by w-subcommander

But Truman belongs to jail. It coul be his price for saving Americans lives and killing civilians. He had my respect as a greatest leader if he went to jail by his own will.

What do you think the death toll would have been had those atom bombs not been dropped? Does anyone really think the invasion would have started on the 6th of August? No! Japan would have been subjected to weeks and months of round the clock conventional bombing and naval shelling doing far more damage than just two small nukes did.

Millions of Japanese would have died either directly or as the result of starvation and disease before the first allied soldier ever hit the beach and millions more would have died afterwards, not to mention the Allied POWs and citizens from dozens of nations around asia still under the boot heel of the Japanese.

Send Harry Truman to jail? No way, not even if he was still alive.

[w-subcommander]

Originally Posted by joea

Did you read ASWnut's stats? You make good points, and I said I thought another course should have been tried, but do you really think the 2 sides were morally equivalent?

Thank you for trying to understand.
Answering your question: of couse not!!!!!!
but I mean that sitting 1 day in a jail for civilian losses in total war is a good example of moral responsibility!!!

[w-subcommander]

Originally Posted by August

What do you think the death toll would have been had those atom bombs not been dropped? Does anyone really think the invasion would have started on the 6th of August? No! Japan would have been subjected to weeks and months of round the clock conventional bombing and naval shelling doing far more damage than just two small nukes did.

Millions of Japanese would have died either directly or as the result of starvation and disease before the first allied soldier ever hit the beach and millions more would have died afterwards, not to mention the Allied POWs and citizens from dozens of nations around asia still under the boot heel of the Japanese.

Send Harry Truman to jail? No way, not even if he was still alive.

Again its a question of moral responsibility.He had my respect as a greatest leader if he went to jail even for 1 day by his own will"

[Dowly]

Just to show how them figures can vary. Here's another estimate on WWII death toll.

http://warchronicle.com/numbers/WWII/deaths.htm

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by w-subcommander

We all responsible for our actions.
Saddam paid his price for keeping country together. Was he a tyrant? Yes? Did he order to kill innocents? Yes. Did he keep country together? Yes.

Hitler paid his price for keeping country together. Was he a tyrant? Yes? Did he order to kill innocents? Yes. Did he keep country together? Yes.

And feel free to juxtapose Mussolini, Alexander the Great, Stalin, Idi Amin, Castro etc, etc. What actually is your point? It surely cannot be equating dictatorships to democracy? Or can it?

[w-subcommander]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

Hitler paid his price for keeping country together. Was he a tyrant? Yes? Did he order to kill innocents? Yes. Did he keep country together? Yes.

And feel free to juxtapose Mussolini, Alexander the Great, Stalin, Idi Amin, Castro etc, etc. What actually is your point? It surely cannot be equating dictatorships to democracy? Or can it?

My point is even if you re on good side - you re responsible for what are you doing. Even siiting in jail for 1 day is just formality it will make some justice. This Lady is supposed to be blind, I think.
Allies leader werent saint. Bombing of Dresden was completly usseless from military point of view. It was revenge. Hiroshima is still in the debates. But we sent to death row a lot of people with different number of victims.
Russian soldiers( not all of couse) did a lot of rape, stealing and killing during the occupation of Germany 1945/46. But only Russians experienced occupation of Germans. They did to Germans what Germans did to Russians. We can understand it. But does it make their actions better?

PS "It surely cannot be equating dictatorships to democracy? Or can it?" Read Aristotle on it. Its contradictionary. Democracy can be same cruel as worst dictatorship. Or you really think that majority is always right? Especially uneducated majority. Stalin Constitution 1936 or Brezhnev's 1977 were very democratic. Do they work? NO. End of story
I just against the point that there is only 1 right way of democracy

[Von Tonner]

Originally Posted by w-subcommander

But only Russians experienced occupation of Germans.

Well actually no. So did the French, the Belgiums, the Dutch, Austrians, the Swedish, the North Africans, etc, etc all experienced occupation by the Germans. Where on earth did you learn your history from?

[/quote] PS "It surely cannot be equating dictatorships to democracy? Or can it?" Read Aristotle on it. Its contradictionary. Democracy can be same cruel as worst dictatorship. Or you reaslly thing that majority is always right? Especially uneducated majority. Stalin Constitution 1936 or Brezhnev's 1977 were very democratic. Do they work? NO. End of story [/quote]

So, Stalin and Brezhnev were challenged for political power by an opposition that were supported or given voice by a free press and a electorate that were given free choice. Interesting.

[w-subcommander]

Originally Posted by Von Tonner

Well actually no. So did the French, the Belgiums, the Dutch, Austrians, the Swedish, the North Africans, etc, etc all experienced occupation by the Germans. Where on earth did you learn your history from?

My fault. I wanted to say that only Russians( Belorus and Ukraine were in SU) -are suffered so much from occupation. (Jews,Gipsy were #1 target, but russians as bolshevik's nation were in the same list of priorities)
Russians had to be destroyed as nonarial race or become slaves(25% all other 75 has to be exterminated) in 3 reich. Frenc, Belgiums and Dutches were declared "close to arial race " and they didnt suffer so much. Austrian are etnically Germans.And anexion of Austria were declared as reunion!!!!!!!!!!! Hitler himself was born Austrian(Salzburg, Austria). Swedish were neutral and anyway declared arian kind.
My mamma told so is not always a good source.It s not personal. We all have same sickness.
Never Let Schooling Get in the Way of Your Education.
PS I forgot poor North Africans! Germans needs cooperation from them to fight with English.

[w-subcommander]

[quote=Von Tonner]w-subcommander
[quote]I m grateful to America for everything it done for me. It s a wonderful country with wonderfull people. I ll protect it against any enemy that will invide. But it is not the BEST in the world!!!!!!!!!!! It has its good side and bad side! Patriotism is to love the country with all its best and worse stuff. And to be patriot doesnt mean to be blind or have hearing problems. Did you ever read Patriotic Act?
And I quote myself:
My point is what done is done. But Truman belongs to jail. It coul be his price for saving Americans lives and killing civilians. He had my respect as a greatest leader if he went to jail by his own will.

w-subcommander I ask this with all due respect, were you born in the USA? If not, where are you from? And also, what in your opinion is the "best country" in the world?

was born Russian.Now I m living in America. And Russia is not perfect too. There is no best countries. Nobody is perfect. And I really love America and Russia too.