Deck Gun Rate-of-Fire

[Palidian]

I do not see a sub carrying AP rounds, I cannot find anything it however, only HE and star shell. AP involves shooting at armored targets, not a wise choice.

Originally Posted by tater

Yeah, that is certainly a way to go about it. For a while the simple solution for me was to let my crew man the gun. Honestly, that might be the best solution.

FWIW, in playing with kv29's mod, I have my reload time set to 8 seconds. The stability of the sub is very sensitive to a few cfg changes, so once someone gets them to behave in storms the way they should, it will be interesting to see lighter seas combined with destabilized guns (even if I'm forced to always load a 4" gun so my gun is realistic).

From my experiments so far, I really think that a "spec accurate" ROF is approachable in a game modded like kv29's mod since aiming mitigates the super effectiveness of the guns.

BTW, from my reading it sounds like wooden boats (sampans, luggers, sea trucks, etc) could be surprisingly resistant. Makes sense, AP would tend to over penetrate. I'm not sure about the fusing on APHE, but it could easily fuse after exiting the other side of a wooden target if it was designed for the penetration of splinter shielding, etc.

tater

[tater]

Something else to mod then, since they carry AP in SH4.

[NEON DEON]

Steve,

Weather is included with SH IV.

What is messed up is that while your crew will refuse to man the deck gun in bad weather you can still do it yourself. That would appear to be a bug. Maybe 1.3 will fix this maybe not. That restriction would stop you cold in the heavy sea cases.
What will also control your rate of fire is range, timing, and type of armament the target has. Close, you pretty much are going to pepper the target even in a medium sea state. You as a skipper should be able to determine what your rate of fire is going to be by the situation at hand.

Range: What I find to be a major problem is that it is too easy to get in close. Because in close is where everything changes. In close you can spot your shots and when you do that you inflict critical damage to the target with a lot less rounds and a lot faster then you can do that at medium or long range. So arm all merchants with 20 mm guns. A larger increase to the number of merchants carrying deck guns should be added too. 3 inch or bigger deck guns would push the range out even farther to where you would expend a large portion of your ammo to attempt to sink one ship to engage that target with the deck gun. Adjust the AI so that the enemy merchants are dangerous but not ultimate killing machines. After all we are talking about gun crews on merchants as opposed to crack IJN gun crews.

Sub damage: If you get hit by more than a 20 mm shell, it should just about ruin your whole day. Increase the damage of enemy shells (can you do that?). This now falls back to range in a gunfight. If you are more than likely to take critical damage yourself then you are going to stay back or not do it at all. But this will only be a deterrent if you play dead is dead. If you are keeping it real, then someone who says it is too easy because I only died twice before I did it, gets knocked out the box.

Target damage: Increase the overall target damages without effecting flooding damage. This way pounding on the superstructure is not going to make the ship explode early which at medium and long ranges your not spot shooting and while you may be getting hits, they are not Annie Oakley specials.

ROF: Here we go the fun subject. How much does the game alter ROF due to crew experience and fatigue? I don’t know maybe that needs to be tested. Four seconds per round on the 4 inch is too fast according to the gun specs. For now I would change it to 7.5 secs a round since that is the low end of the spec rate for that gun and what steeltrap posted about ROF as given by O’Kane.

Other factors: Sinking time, what is the target loaded or not loaded with, equipment failures are also other things to consider too. I believe in order to address these issues and earlier issues that testing the stock game in a controlled way would have to be looked into to better get an understanding of how to address these issues.

Alot of this has been explored here, but since you asked, there you go.

PS.

Steve,

if you have issues with my posts, by all means keep reminding me about when I have stepped over the line. This will help me in the future temper my thoughts as opposed to just going with the flow. Please don't forget, however the other posters in here who light it yet dont get a comment from you. I dont want to feel special.

[tater]

^^^ Excellent points, neon. All of 'em.

[Excalibur Bane]

I let my crew operate the deck gun, that seems to solve the problem. For the most part anyway, I'm gonna have to chew them out when I get back to port, their beginning to actually land half of the shots that they shoot. Tsk, tsk.

I'm in late '42 right now, and I'm running into alot more armed merchants (probably half of them) and they are decent shots. Better then my own crew, anyway. In one engagement against three armed merchants running in a convoy, I actually did have to operate the gun myself or risk getting blown out of the water.

[Palidian]

In addition I would like to add, that the gun has no shield, your crew is very exposed, even to a guy with a rifle, little alone the 20mm machine gun fire. If your within 500 yards and you want to surface, just have crew members suffer random wounds. In addition to getting peppered with 20mm fire. 20 mm can puncture the pressure hull. That being said subs would be rather immune to close range gun fire. Assuming the gun could be depressed far enough at 500 yards, rounds will just ricochet off the water and the pressure hull is below the water, sure the conning tower is above water, but that wont sink the sub.

A deck gun should only be used to finish off a target that the crew has already abandoned.

I do feel the gun damage in the game is underpowered. Some continue to make it less powerful. Guns sink ships, they have for 100s of years, you would think if they were so ineffective that they would not of used them. These merchants are not compartmentalized military ships, nor do they have military crews. They are designed to carry cargo, not to take gunfire.

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

Steve,

Weather is included with SH IV.

What is messed up is that while your crew will refuse to man the deck gun in bad weather you can still do it yourself. That would appear to be a bug. Maybe 1.3 will fix this maybe not. That restriction would stop you cold in the heavy sea cases.
What will also control your rate of fire is range, timing, and type of armament the target has. Close, you pretty much are going to pepper the target even in a medium sea state. You as a skipper should be able to determine what your rate of fire is going to be by the situation at hand.

Range: What I find to be a major problem is that it is too easy to get in close. Because in close is where everything changes. In close you can spot your shots and when you do that you inflict critical damage to the target with a lot less rounds and a lot faster then you can do that at medium or long range. So arm all merchants with 20 mm guns. A larger increase to the number of merchants carrying deck guns should be added too. 3 inch or bigger deck guns would push the range out even farther to where you would expend a large portion of your ammo to attempt to sink one ship to engage that target with the deck gun. Adjust the AI so that the enemy merchants are dangerous but not ultimate killing machines. After all we are talking about gun crews on merchants as opposed to crack IJN gun crews.

Sub damage: If you get hit by more than a 20 mm shell, it should just about ruin your whole day. Increase the damage of enemy shells (can you do that?). This now falls back to range in a gunfight. If you are more than likely to take critical damage yourself then you are going to stay back or not do it at all. But this will only be a deterrent if you play dead is dead. If you are keeping it real, then someone who says it is too easy because I only died twice before I did it, gets knocked out the box.

Target damage: Increase the overall target damages without effecting flooding damage. This way pounding on the superstructure is not going to make the ship explode early which at medium and long ranges your not spot shooting and while you may be getting hits, they are not Annie Oakley specials.

ROF: Here we go the fun subject. How much does the game alter ROF due to crew experience and fatigue? I don’t know maybe that needs to be tested. Four seconds per round on the 4 inch is too fast according to the gun specs. For now I would change it to 7.5 secs a round since that is the low end of the spec rate for that gun and what steeltrap posted about ROF as given by O’Kane.

Other factors: Sinking time, what is the target loaded or not loaded with, equipment failures are also other things to consider too. I believe in order to address these issues and earlier issues that testing the stock game in a controlled way would have to be looked into to better get an understanding of how to address these issues.

Alot of this has been explored here, but since you asked, there you go.

PS.

Steve,

if you have issues with my posts, by all means keep reminding me about when I have stepped over the line. This will help me in the future temper my thoughts as opposed to just going with the flow. Please don't forget, however the other posters in here who light it yet dont get a comment from you. I dont want to feel special.

[Palidian]

Beery brings this on him self, IMO people who try to discuss this with him get the I am correct and you are wrong attitude, in spite of the actual facts. Then he brags about his ignore list, show he might be wrong and he orders you put to death. He is not at all in finding out the truth, or making a “real” simulation as he claims. It is about Berry and his ego. All the “me too” types out there agreeing with him provide nothing in support don't help ether.

The other mods on this and other boards do not have this drama.

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

But many of you seem to want to "prove" that Beery (and anyone who agrees with him) is at best wrong, and at worst an idiot.

[tater]

How many large frieghters were sunk by gunfire alone in the pacific, exactly?

The answer is very few, and not very large ships. The number of rounds expended and hits made to do so was high.

Deck guns were simply not effective weapons vs larger ships because if they WERE, they would have been used more.

[tater]

I just checked all the claims/sinkings through the end of 1943. There was ONE confirmed claim with a DG vs a ship of over 1000 tons, it was actualy quite big, over 8000 tons. There were only a handful of DG claims made in those 2 years vs anything bigger than a sampan. Many were flat wrong. A 1500 ton claim, jap records show the ship as 134 tons.

Narwal's famous DG example (we talked about this above someplace) vs the 4000 ton APK? The real ship was Himeno Maru of 834 tons.

2 years, ONE sinking of a ship over 1000 tons with a DG.

Next >1000 claim: Mar. 1044, Gato claims a 2000 tonner with the DG, real ship? 871 tons (Okinoyama Maru)

Haven't got past march.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Palidian

I do not see a sub carrying AP rounds, I cannot find anything it however, only HE and star shell. AP involves shooting at armored targets, not a wise choice.

I agree, but I have seen a source indicating they did carry some AP rounds. A while back there was a similar question involving ammo for u-boats (SH3 of course). In that case the best I could find was Naval Weapons Of World War Two, which for both the 8.8cm and 10.5cm said AP and Illuminating (StarShell) as being for "Destroyers and minesweepers". It didn't say only those ships, but it did specifically mention them, so I feel safe in saying not for u-boats.

Most sources only give the ammo carried by the guns in general, and most 5" guns and smaller carried a common, or Semi-Armor-Piercing round, not a true AP. This was the case even for destroyers; the famous 5"/38 is listed as having an AP round, but most books I've seen only list AA and HC as being carried. Navweaps.com doesn't list AP for the 5"/25 or 4"/50, but does list it for the 3"/50. Starshell is listed for all rounds, but the question then becomes: yes, there were rounds made for the guns, but were they carried by submarines. I too fail to see what the use for AP would be on a submarine, and I don't even see the use for starshells.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by NEON DEON

PS.

Steve,

if you have issues with my posts, by all means keep reminding me about when I have stepped over the line. This will help me in the future temper my thoughts as opposed to just going with the flow. Please don't forget, however the other posters in here who light it yet dont get a comment from you. I dont want to feel special.

You're absolutely right; I'm still fighting old battles.

I do comment when I think other people are using low blows, but if you think I'm singling you out I'll be glad to lighten up. One of my favorite sayings is from the French philosopher Josef Joubert: "The purpose of argument or debate should be progress, not victory". I don't always live by it, but I do try.

[tater]

The next confirmed DG sinking of a CLAIM over 1000 tons was August 19th, 1944. there was another claim never confirmed. BTW, the confirmed claim for 2000 tons? An 800 ton ship, not sunk, but she was run aground.

Bowfin claimed a torpedoed 1000 tonner sunk afterwards with a DG in september... the actual ship was 245 tons.

(seeing a pattern? With rare exceptions they aren't ever even attacking anything much over 500 tons with a DG, even if they thought it was 4000 (look at a real ONI manual and it's not surprising, we have it VERY easy in terms of IDing ships, it's a wonder they were as accurate as they were given the non-standardized nature of jap shipping).

OK, scanned through the end of 1944. No more confirmed sinkings of anything over 1000 tons wih a DG. None. So from Dec. 7, 1941, to Dec. 31, 1944 we have ONE confirmed sinking of a ship substantially over 1000 tons with a DG. There are maybe 10-20 claims for ships in the 1-2000 ton range, but from the confirmed examples, they are frequently gorssly wrong in their tonnage estimates.

Yeah, DGs were the wonder weapons of the sub war, they sank a few thousand tons out of how many MILLIONS sunk with torpedos?

[tater]

BTW, I'm not saying anythign about the ROF, I'm honestly not sure what the number should be, though as I have said with a mod like kv29s, I think it could actually approach the "spec" ROFs for the guns, ceertainly on the order of 6 rpm or perhaps even higher.

That said, for outcomes to match reality, DGs cannot be terribly effective, cause they skippers of the period certainly didn't think they were, they were mostly whacking sampans with them.

[NEON DEON]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I agree, but I have seen a source indicating they did carry some AP rounds. A while back there was a similar question involving ammo for u-boats (SH3 of course). In that case the best I could find was Naval Weapons Of World War Two, which for both the 8.8cm and 10.5cm said AP and Illuminating (StarShell) as being for "Destroyers and minesweepers". It didn't say only those ships, but it did specifically mention them, so I feel safe in saying not for u-boats.

Most sources only give the ammo carried by the guns in general, and most 5" guns and smaller carried a common, or Semi-Armor-Piercing round, not a true AP. This was the case even for destroyers; the famous 5"/38 is listed as having an AP round, but most books I've seen only list AA and HC as being carried. Navweaps.com doesn't list AP for the 5"/25 or 4"/50, but does list it for the 3"/50. Starshell is listed for all rounds, but the question then becomes: yes, there were rounds made for the guns, but were they carried by submarines. I too fail to see what the use for AP would be on a submarine, and I don't even see the use for starshells.

On Fluckey's last patrol in the book Thunder Below he makes this comment:

"We ceased fire when our 5-inch, high-capacity ammunition was down to five shells. At the bottom of the magazine we found three star shells. Someones bright idea. They have no explosive, and the last thing a sub needs is to illuminate herself at night."

Steve,

Fluckey agrees with you.

What Fluckey also mentioned was the need to carry incendiary ammunition.

He must have been a pyro-maniac!

[tater]

API (or whatever it is for guns, not MGs) would have been very useful since the vast majority of deck gun attacks (well in excess of 90-95%) were on sampans, trawlers, etc. Many of the small "AKs" attacked with deck guns (based on just looking at the confirmed sinkings) could have also been built of wood.

After 1943, the japanese built huge numbers of small, wooden "sea trucks" in an attempt to replace vulnerable frieghters with a "distributed" system of shipping (you have to sink 10 sea trucks to sink 3000 tons, chances are you'll sink a couple and the rest will get away).

tater