about the real fleet boat mod...

[mookiemookie]

That's exactly what I'm looking for out of a sub SIMULATOR. I want to be placed in the exact same situations that the WW2 skippers were, and have the same abilities and limitations they did. That's funner than any arcade shoot em up for me. I want a simulator, and not a game.

Thank you Beery for your unrelenting quest for realism!

[Beery]

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

That's exactly what I'm looking for out of a sub SIMULATOR. I want to be placed in the exact same situations that the WW2 skippers were, and have the same abilities and limitations they did. That's funner than any arcade shoot em up for me. I want a simulator, and not a game.

Thank you Beery for your unrelenting quest for realism!

Thanks. Hehe I'm just glad I'm not alone in my singleminded quest for realism. The support I get from RFB's fans spurs me to go the extra mile to pursue absolute uncompromising realism.

Much of the reason for my mods has to do with honouring the people who worked in the dangerous jobs that these games portray. I always felt that games often failed to give them their proper due: a game in which it seems easy to outscore the highest-scoring ace (as stock SH4 does) runs the risk of minimizing the achievements of the real people and giving a false impression to players. Those people did the best anyone could and in my opinion a simulation should find what it was that limited their success and implement realistic features in order to make it almost impossible to do better.

My goal of paying tribute to real submariners is illustrated by the additions I've made to the game credits which now start with a list of the US subs on eternal patrol.

[Xelif]

I'll chime in and say I love the mod, just like I loved your real u-boat mod! It is a bit of a shock to shoot the deck gun the first time and see the new reload time, but I always figured you had it set to a realistic figure. Seeing the patrol logs quoted above drives home just how hard it was to use a deck gun for sinking ships! That's a LOT of time sitting on the surface firing shell after shell. I get impatient after 5 minutes of doing that, feeling so exposed! Turns out that wouldn't have even sunk the smallest ship in reality. Everyone who complains about the realistic gun changes you created needs to see said logs

I believe that most people who complain about the gun are simply used to cruising on the surface wreaking havoc - which never occured in reality - and cannot adjust to the change quickly. Subs were never supposed to be submersible cruisers with big guns, except for one or two oddities

Thank you as well, Beery for the comments on time compression and realism. I agree entirely and have always struggled to explain why more realism increases my enjoyment. You put it much better than I ever could - we are involved with an interactive documentary, rather than an arcade game. It drove me crazy to consistently beat the TOP u-boat and US sub aces with stock silent hunter games. I can't flatter myself into thinking that somehow I'm a better sub captain than they are I also struggled to defend to myself the use of time compression, but again you have defended the use more eloquently than I could imagine.

[Wilcke]

Beery,

The math looks good and yes realism is the key, or goal, or what have you! Regardless of ROF, how about those seas even with a little swell you still have to allow the gun to come on target and squeeze off the shot at the appropriate time to get the shell into the waterline.

It's not a shotgun!

Keep up the good work!

Wilcke

[Laffertytig]

i havent bought SH4 yet but ive read so many posts from people who get really irate about the reload times with this mod. the thing i cant get my head round is that if they cant stand the reload times that much then just dont install the mod, or even better mod it themselves. but no they mostly choose to come on and whine!

every forum has these types of people

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, just write a simple program that fires at full speed, and then takes into account ammo handling, crew fatigue, sea state and relative speeds and distance, and it's all fixed.:rotfl:

Well, it's what should have been done in the first place.
(Whiner's line forms on the left, behind me)

[Torpex752]

Originally Posted by Laffertytig

i havent bought SH4 yet but ive read so many posts from people who get really irate about the reload times with this mod. the thing i cant get my head round is that if they cant stand the reload times that much then just dont install the mod, or even better mod it themselves. but no they mostly choose to come on and whine!

every forum has these types of people

They install the MOD because they like 99% of it and look to change that 1% to suit their style. Its normal for people to find that 1% they want changed, its what makes them REAL. And as long as they ask politely, their desire to find an alternate 1% shouldnt draw fire.

I agree 100% that RFB is an excellent MOD, for as best as can be done with the limitations of game itself. I was the first person to create a sound mod for SH1 so I know how much time it takes for a MOD to be put together, its almost as involved as building a house from the ground up to it being finished & painted. Unfortunately the days of excellent detailed "simulators" seems to be passing into the wind. One sad part I've seen over the last 10 years seems to be the reliance on the internet to provide accurate detailed information. Slowly but surely its errors are finding its way into games & MODs here and there. As far as I'm concerned the only way to get accurate information is to see the actual documents for themselves or read the books in the bindings. Not easy I know, but I know for fact that inaccuracies are finding their way in the transition from ink to bits. Too big a monster for me alone to fix! LOL

Frank

[Stew U-582]

Originally Posted by Beery

Playability is only a goal in RFB as long as it doesn't impede realism. So far I haven't experienced any playability issues since for me the most realistic experience is by nature the most playable. I find it hard to play simulations that give an arcade style experience.

As for time compression, the idea that time compression is unrealistic is a fallacy. It's not unrealistic because all of the crew and every other part of the simulation experiences time at 1:1 no matter what level of compression is used. The player gains no special abilities by using TC - he has the exact same ability as a commander has. If it has any effect at all it's an adverse effect on the player in that it hinders a player's ability to respond quickly to emergencies, but even then, this simulates a commander responding slowly due to being woken from sleep. In short, the integrity of the simulation is completely unaffected by time compression.

Games that place playability above realism are more fun (at least superficially) because they're usually fantasy or arcade-style. Basically, if players have as much fun playing RFB as they would playing an arcade game I'm doing something wrong. RFB is not meant to be a game - it's a tool for learning what WW2 submarining was all about and it's an interactive tribute to WW2 submariners. People who use RFB are not looking to be entertained in the same way that arcade games entertain - they are looking to get an experience similar to watching a good documentary. People looking for a playable 'game' are not the target audience for RFB - they won't get anything from it because RFB is not meant to entertain in that way.

sorry I think ive been misundrestood I didnt mean that the research afected playabilty. or was a waste of time. I was solely refering to the deck gun loading time. I wasnt trying to bag rfb in any way. I was just trying to address the problem of the original post about crawlerz opinion on the deck gun loading times and how he could go about changing the game to his preferance.
Again I congratulate the people who did research and modified files to make the game more realistic but no matter what you do it will allways remain a game. Games are for the purpose of entertainment.
I disagree with your opinion about TC not being unrealistic. for one you are completley removing the factor of fatigue on the player. Surley you cannot deny that these factors woulld affect the judgement of a captain that has been at sea for an extended period of time.

[Laffertytig]

hey torpex dunno if u missed the part where i said why dont they mod the reload times themselves! your right, there are people who just wanna query how they do that which is cool its the ones who just whine about why they think the mod is wrong who wind me up.

beery has researched his mod to death and it is his mod after all so all you moaners stop moaning. and that includes me

[Torpex752]

Originally Posted by Laffertytig

hey torpex dunno if u missed the part where i said why dont they mod the reload times themselves! your right, there are people who just wanna query how they do that which is cool its the ones who just whine about why they think the mod is wrong who wind me up.

beery has researched his mod to death and it is his mod after all so all you moaners stop moaning. and that includes me

Sorry laff, I was not really brow beating what you said, more just just trying to make a point on both sides of the matter using what you said. My point is...

1- You cant make something thats equivilant to "artwork" and be so thin skinned that you cant take criticism of it in the 1-2% catagory. Expect criticism.

2- If you do criticize be willing to correct it for yourself and not expect someone to alter their work to cater to each persons own liking. Be willing to fix your own dislikes.

Frank

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Stew U-582

I disagree with your opinion about TC not being unrealistic. for one you are completley removing the factor of fatigue on the player. Surley you cannot deny that these factors woulld affect the judgement of a captain that has been at sea for an extended period of time.

Time compression has no bearing on that because it can be simulated by playing when one is tired - as many of us do. Many of us play when we should be getting some much needed sleep - often that's the only time we CAN play, so fatigue is probably just as much a part of running an RFB simulation as it is of commanding a real WW2 sub. Besides, a real sub captain at sea has officers who are well-rested doing his job when he's getting his rest. We don't have that option, but we can simulate all those things whether TC is used or not.

Anyway, in reality a good captain would ensure that he was well rested even after long periods at sea - that is part of his job. It's not as if US sub crews had no bunks or showers. It's a poor navy indeed that doesn't ensure that its crew (including its commanders) are trained in ways that allow them to work at peak efficiency. But the reality of the issue is that some commanders were always well-rested while others rarely were - the reality is varied and so our ability to simulate it is not affected all that much. But for the times when a commander would be operating when tired we have the ability to simulate that - even when using time compression. One way to do it is to play while we're actually fatigued (I'm an insomniac and I often play until 4am and spend days or weeks getting 4 hours sleep per night, so to suggest my use of TC makes me unable to simulate fatigue is somewhat ironic - personally I probably have the opposite problem); another way to simulate excess fatigue or excess impetuosity is to play after consuming a beer or two, which cuts down reaction times and affects judgment. In my opinion it's a mistake to suggest we're incapable of doing these things due to using time compression. The average simulation enthusiast is intelligent enough to realise that his mental and physical state affects the validity of the simulation and a lot of discussions about simulation gaming revolve around the best ways to accurately simulate the situations the simulations portray.

Time compression, as I said before, has no bearing on realism because:

1. the crew always experiences time at 1:1.

2. How the player simulates the activities of a captain is up to the player - time compression has no influence at all on how realistically the player chooses to roleplay his character.

In short, your criticism has no validity because it's predicated on the notion that we don't know how to use our own situation to aid in enhancing a good simulation. Users of simulations aren't newbies at this simulation business - in 20+ years of simulation gaming many of us have turned simulation gaming into an art form - often we have a lot of experience in timing our simulation sessions to take advantage of our mental and physical state and thus creating a more realistic simulation. When we ought to be fresh and alert we play on weekend mornings (that's when I start a new career); when we need to be tired we play after the rest of the family has gone to bed and we push into the small hours.

[LW_lcarp]

Now what i dont get out of all the realism nuts out there is there is more then 1 person on these boats. That means there are more then 2 people on the gun when its firing. The have a thing called a bucket brigade (a long of people passing one bucket to the next person). So slowing down the deck gun cant really add to the realism that much if at all.

Now if the realism nuts out there really want to brag about realism then in there words they never use time compression, sit on watch at all times, manually set up torp shots, watch the radar and other instuments, and what ever else they deem as realism. Now I fly in full simulated mode when I fly and have no clue how to manually TDC my torps so I let the crew do it. The life at sea is not a 1 man operation its a combination of an entire crew. So if ya want to talk real then use the crew.

[Sailor Steve]

I think you need to go back and reread the posts showing actual combat reload times and problems firing in any kind of a sea at all. The maximum rate of fire is only ever obtained under ideal conditions, and there's no such thing as as an ideal condition except when the gun is being tested at the range. The "bucket brigade" has been discussed several times in this very thread, and it is definitely slower than direct access of the ready-use ammo. Use whatever times suit you, but don't say that combat times of 4 seconds are realistic, because they aren't.

[Torpex752]

"Now what i dont get out of all the realism nuts out there is there is more then 1 person on these boats. That means there are more then 2 people on the gun when its firing. The have a thing called a bucket brigade (a long of people passing one bucket to the next person). So slowing down the deck gun cant really add to the realism that much if at all. "

LW,
The problem with the ROF that SH4 allows any changes to is that it only allows us one ROF. Back then there were many variables; Training, Crew quality, the CO's interest in using it, sea state, time of day, mis-fires, tatical situation, and type of Gun, target size & distance. If SH4 took all those into consideration and varied the ROF for the best and worst of those conditions you would see different times. Given the absolute best conditions the ROF in a flat calm sea with an expert crew they could pump out and hit (depending again on a variable called distance & size of target) 4-6 rounds a minute. Now take that same crew and move the target out to 2 miles, and give it a sea state 1 and they may keep the same ROF but only hit 50% of the time. So in a game where you can establish only one ROF, its kinda unfair to critize whatever they chose. It is a MOD afterall and you can install the stock file back in if you like.

Frank

[Mush Martin]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Oh, just write a simple program that fires at full speed, and then takes into account ammo handling, crew fatigue, sea state and relative speeds and distance, and it's all fixed.:rotfl:

Well, it's what should have been done in the first place.
(Whiner's line forms on the left, behind me)

Jeez steve you forgot barrel wear.