That's a big gun! - Page 4

kurtz · 06-01-07, 12:24 PM

[quote=Yahoshua
Recoil is the air that was pushed out of the barrel, rushing back into the barrel and stopping on the spent cartridge.

[/quote]

Surely recoil is the application of one of Newtons Laws (3rd I think) Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The recoil is because the propellant in the cartridge expands forcing the casing and bullet away from each other equally. As the bullet can move freely out of the barrel that moves faster and further than the rifle itself.

Also...
I think the compensator on the handgun does the same job as the muzzle brake on the rather lovely Barret.

The .50 cal handgun in this thread is a bolt action weapon so no springs, I guess you you have to do special exercises to toughen your wrist up, I unfortunately can't divulge what these exercise are

Heibges · 06-01-07, 12:29 PM

I believe all US Army sniper teams operate with a shooter and a spotter.

Yahoshua · 06-01-07, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Here is a copy of Barrett's muzzle brake patent:

Quote:

Lateral projection muzzle brake

Document Type and Number:
United States Patent 7032339
Link to this page:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/7032339.html
Abstract:
An improved muzzle brake, attached to the end of a rifle barrel reducing the recoil of the rifle includes an internally threaded attaching end, engaging outer threads of a rifle barrel, a flattened projectile end, with an overall increasing taper from the attaching end to the projectile end, a flat upper surface which does not impede the sight line of the rifle, a flat lower surface, and two lateral surfaces including a first lateral oval vent, a second lateral oval vent and a third lateral oval vent, the first lateral vent defining a first flat brake plate having a first central bore, the second lateral oval vent defining a second flat brake plate having a second central bore and the third lateral oval vent defining a third flat brake plate having a third central bore penetrating through the projectile end, wherein a bullet fired from the rifle travels through the attaching end, the first central bore, second central bore and third central bore, while the gasses generated by the fired projectile are deflected laterally by the first flat brake plate, second flat brake plate and third flat brake plate, forcing the rifle forward, reducing the recoil force of the fired rifle.

Sound cool? It is, especially in operation!

-S

PS. Here are a couple pics of it so you can see the backwards angle:

I'd forgotten the brakes were directed backwards

. Never fired one myself but I did see an accurized .338 LM rifle in action going for 20 oz. water bottles at around 400 meters. It was really cool to see how high those things would fly when you hit 'em just right.

Yahoshua · 06-01-07, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kurtz

Surely recoil is the application of one of Newtons Laws (3rd I think) Every action has an equal and opposite reaction.

The recoil is because the propellant in the cartridge expands forcing the casing and bullet away from each other equally. As the bullet can move freely out of the barrel that moves faster and further than the rifle itself.

I seem to be posting parts of the recoil process and not the full event

. I need to get my brain in order. But yes you are correct.

Okay, we'll start from the beginning here using a Bolt-Action Rifle as an example, the chamber is loaded and the bolt is in the process of firing.

1. Firing pin strikes Primer, igniting powder in cartridge. Cartridge casing expands and stops against the wall of the chamber and bolt face.

2. Expanding gases from powder in cartridge begin to force bullet out of the casing and onto the lands and grooves in the barrel (the casing doesn't move rearward yet because it's grabbing the sides of the chamber).

3.Friction between the bullet and the lands and grooves pulls the barrel slightly forward.

4. Air that's in the barrel begins to be pushed out by the bullet toward the muzzle.

5. Shock from the air impact breaks the speed of sound (bang).

6. Bullet leaves muzzle.

7. Expanding gases leave muzzle.

8. Cartridge casing springs back to original size after internal pressure drops.

9. Air rushes back into barrel and slams into spent cartridge casing.

10. Cartridge casing slams into face of bolt and the force of impact travels through the receiver, the stock, and into the shooter.

The video here will help with the above processs (the forward movement is almost imperceptible since there's no background to illuminate the barrel, but I believe this is a beretta that's being fired).

http://www.stupidvideos.com/video//S...g_Stuff/?m=new

06-01-07, 02:27 PM

I agree it probably a beretta M92.

The cavitation in the Gelatin was amazing.

I'm afraid I can't accept the stuff about air rushing back into the barrell causing recoil. a) I'm not sure there will be such a hard vacuum left in the barrell and b) the area of the bolt face is so small that the 15 psi of pressure at max won't do much.

That said your explanation makes sense of the muzzle brake/compensator. If you can give me a link to another explanation...please.

I must admit though being English I don't get to see guns that often so I'm working just from physics.

06-01-07, 02:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antidike

I agree it probably a beretta M92.

The cavitation in the Gelatin was amazing.

I'm afraid I can't accept the stuff about air rushing back into the barrell causing recoil. a) I'm not sure there will be such a hard vacuum left in the barrell and b) the area of the bolt face is so small that the 15 psi of pressure at max won't do much.

That said your explanation makes sense of the muzzle brake/compensator. If you can give me a link to another explanation...please.

I must admit though being English I don't get to see guns that often so I'm working just from physics.

Oops posted on my daughters login...Kurtz

While I'm here though, c'mon moderators give her a girlie icon

Sailor Steve · 06-01-07, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SUBMAN1

Thought so. The later movie used the .44 (or was the first edited after the fact?):

And didn't Dirty Harry have a .357?
Yep. Not sure myself whether the .44 mag had been developed by the time Dirty Harry was being made, though.

Posted by: McGehee at January 16, 2005 07:54 AM
IIRC, Dirty Harry started with a .357 before the .44 came on the market, but upgraded shortly thereafter. Making ol' Clint the Xrlq of his day, so to speak.

You're quoting a bad source. In a later movie he switched from the ".44 Magnum", a revolver, to the "Automag"; but the original was a .44, not a .357.

Here's another source:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0066999/quotes

Yahoshua · 06-01-07, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antidike

I agree it probably a beretta M92.

The cavitation in the Gelatin was amazing.

I'm afraid I can't accept the stuff about air rushing back into the barrell causing recoil. a) I'm not sure there will be such a hard vacuum left in the barrell and b) the area of the bolt face is so small that the 15 psi of pressure at max won't do much.

That said your explanation makes sense of the muzzle brake/compensator. If you can give me a link to another explanation...please.

I must admit though being English I don't get to see guns that often so I'm working just from physics.

A. I didn't quite fully explain it...again. When the bullet leaves the barrel, the barrel will spring rearward due to the friction caused by the bullet, the air that rushes into the barrel will merely compound it.

This site explains it better than I can.

http://illumin.usc.edu/article.php?articleID=61&page=2

B. I don't know where you got 15 PSI from, since firearms operate in the thousands of PSI range. For example, SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Manufacturing Institute) rates 9mm at a standard of 35,000 PSI.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

SAAMI website here: http://www.saami.org/

ASWnut101 · 06-01-07, 05:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

B. I don't know where you got 15 PSI from, since firearms operate in the thousands of PSI range. For example, SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Manufacturing Institute) rates 9mm at a standard of 35,000 PSI.

Probably got it mixed up with standard air-pressure (a 'normal' day outside), which is 15 psi.

...to bad I've never fired a Barret anything in my life. I'd like to 'feel' the experience.

Yahoshua · 06-01-07, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

My baby from Delta Force MP sniper days! How I've missed you!

You played that game too? What was your longest record with the .50?

Mine was 2,900 meters (beyond view shot on a snow level). Loved using that .50 at long distance.

kurtz · 06-01-07, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

B. I don't know where you got 15 PSI from, since firearms operate in the thousands of PSI range. For example, SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Manufacturing Institute) rates 9mm at a standard of 35,000 PSI.

Probably got it mixed up with standard air-pressure (a 'normal' day outside), which is 15 psi.

...to bad I've never fired a Barret anything in my life. I'd like to 'feel' the experience.

That's where I got the pressure from I'll re read in the morning but I thought that was where the pressure was coming from to replace the gases from the propellant.

@Yahoshua thanks for the links, I'll give them a good read there's obviously something I'm not getting my head around tonight.

Yahoshua · 06-01-07, 08:44 PM

Don't worry, us guys can't know EVERYTHING.....although we'd like to.

fatty · 06-01-07, 08:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yahoshua

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antidike

I agree it probably a beretta M92.

The cavitation in the Gelatin was amazing.

I'm afraid I can't accept the stuff about air rushing back into the barrell causing recoil. a) I'm not sure there will be such a hard vacuum left in the barrell and b) the area of the bolt face is so small that the 15 psi of pressure at max won't do much.

That said your explanation makes sense of the muzzle brake/compensator. If you can give me a link to another explanation...please.

I must admit though being English I don't get to see guns that often so I'm working just from physics.

A. I didn't quite fully explain it...again. When the bullet leaves the barrel, the barrel will spring rearward due to the friction caused by the bullet, the air that rushes into the barrel will merely compound it.

This site explains it better than I can.

http://illumin.usc.edu/article.php?articleID=61&page=2

B. I don't know where you got 15 PSI from, since firearms operate in the thousands of PSI range. For example, SAAMI (Sporting Arms and Manufacturing Institute) rates 9mm at a standard of 35,000 PSI.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm

SAAMI website here: http://www.saami.org/

Not sure where you are getting friction and rushing air from. Newton's Third Law is all that's needed to explain recoil; the expansive release of energy used to propel a bullet forward also propels a gun backward. Muzzle breaks help this by diverting the energy in a direction other than forward/backward.

SUBMAN1 · 06-02-07, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASWnut101

...to bad I've never fired a Barret anything in my life. I'd like to 'feel' the experience.

Its an experience that is pretty much different from anything else you've fired. I suggest you try!

One problem though - not many of them in civi hands either due to cost. By the time you add up scope and rifle, you are pushing in close to $10K without even buying the ammo yet. Add another $2 to $3 every time you pull the trigger too.

They make cheaper single shot version in the $4K range, but that's not as much fun!

-S

06-01-07, 12:24 PM	#46
kurtz Seasoned Skipper Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Leighton Buzzard,England Posts: 660 Downloads: 39 Uploads: 0	[quote=Yahoshua Recoil is the air that was pushed out of the barrel, rushing back into the barrel and stopping on the spent cartridge. [/quote] Surely recoil is the application of one of Newtons Laws (3rd I think) Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. The recoil is because the propellant in the cartridge expands forcing the casing and bullet away from each other equally. As the bullet can move freely out of the barrel that moves faster and further than the rifle itself. Also... I think the compensator on the handgun does the same job as the muzzle brake on the rather lovely Barret. The .50 cal handgun in this thread is a bolt action weapon so no springs, I guess you you have to do special exercises to toughen your wrist up, I unfortunately can't divulge what these exercise are __________________ War without Fire is like sausages without mustard-Henry V. http://www.myvintagelife.co.uk/

06-01-07, 12:29 PM	#47
Heibges Sea Lord Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: San Francisco, California Posts: 1,633 Downloads: 1 Uploads: 0	I believe all US Army sniper teams operate with a shooter and a spotter. __________________ U.Kdt.Hdb B. I. 28) This possibility of using the hydrophone to help in detecting surface ships should, however, be restricted to those cases where the submarine is unavoidably compelled to stay below the surface. http://www.hackworth.com/

06-01-07, 08:44 PM	#57
Yahoshua The Old Man Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 1,493 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Don't worry, us guys can't know EVERYTHING.....although we'd like to. __________________ Science is the organized unpredictability that strives not to set limits to mans' capabilities, but is the engine by which the limits of mans' understanding is defined-Yahoshua

06-01-07, 02:27 PM	#50
Antidike Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I agree it probably a beretta M92. The cavitation in the Gelatin was amazing. I'm afraid I can't accept the stuff about air rushing back into the barrell causing recoil. a) I'm not sure there will be such a hard vacuum left in the barrell and b) the area of the bolt face is so small that the 15 psi of pressure at max won't do much. That said your explanation makes sense of the muzzle brake/compensator. If you can give me a link to another explanation...please. I must admit though being English I don't get to see guns that often so I'm working just from physics.