Hardcore playing and the chronometer

[elanaiba]

Originally Posted by Dowly

Yeh, well for me that's just another excuse. Maybe he read my post where I said something like "There's no law to force the devs to patch their games. If someone sues them for the game having multiple broken features, the devs can just say 'We intended it like that'."

Its easy to assume all sorts of things Dowly. That doesn't mean their true though. And this dev is not tricking this community.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

Just don't complain when the poor ensign fresh from school messes it up completely

If I can keelhaul him afterwards, I'm happy.

[OlegM]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

Its easy to assume all sorts of things Dowly. That doesn't mean their true though. And this dev is not tricking this community.

Mate you're too kind to these people

(jokinggg!! :rotfl: )

[LukeFF]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

"The fact is, this is exactly how WWII skippers estimated a target's speed"

The key here is the word "exactly" - a seemingly scientific correspondence between our SH3 "get target speed" button and actual WW2 practice. Good "placeholder", perhaps, but exact representation, hardly.

But, regardless of this, I wish not clash sword with you proving I'm right right right as some developers use to do.We'll TRY to fix it and you'll have your speed estimation.

Just don't complain when the poor ensign fresh from school messes it up completely

Okay, let me tone it down a bit, since I did come on strong back when I made that post:

Basically, I see using the chronometer to estimate speed in an abstract manner. Yes, of course, WWII sub commanders didn't simply "push a button" to determine a target's speed. What the chronometer does represent, though, is the captain calling out a range and bearing to the plotting officer, waiting a while, and then calling out a second range and bearing for the plotter to use in order to estimate the target's speed, using a nomograph or other such device. And yes, using turn count estimates from the sonarman would also come into play.

Now, all that makes sense, does it not? The more tools you give to the player to estimate the target's speed, the better off everyone will be. Some people will prefer one method, other's, another. I just prefer to use a method that was common practice during the war.

And I certainly won't complain when my new ensign messes it up. That's just part of the human error factor.

[heartc]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

The only thing is - the reason I started this thread - some people treat this missing feature as the number one problem they have with the game and I think we all agree there are much more important things to be fixed.

Yep. I would say the radar and even more importantly the AI, with convoys coming to a stop / 1 knots speed once the first torpedo goes off, and escorts often sitting there idle watching the show. Last time I attacked a convoy I got so frustrated that I surfaced, chased down and sank 3 destroyers with the deck gun...I only recieved a single burst of MG fire from one of them...it was far worse than Hollywood. And this was even with the improved escorts mod from Kakemann.

I've been a staunch supporter of this game, but an AI like that in a simulation is unacceptable and a showstopper. Please fix it.

[U-Bones]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

The only thing is - the reason I started this thread - some people treat this missing feature as the number one problem they have with the game and I think we all agree there are much more important things to be fixed.

Thats why I went right away to alternate priorities. I will add another that is seldom mentioned & I think would add to the playability of all types of players.

A large part of the frustration with damage control is that heavy damage often never gets a fighting chance because flooding affects the trim of the boat so profoundly that very high speeds have to be used to keep from going terminally deep in very few minutes.

The overall effect is as if water is heaver inside the sub than out. If the overly dramatic sinking (from even light to moderate flooding) could be mitgated, a LOT of the negativity associated with damage control would dissipate. Wait for the flooding to get out of control before making depth control a lost cause.

IMO this is a major bang for the buck fix. Hope it strikes a chord.

[joea]

Originally Posted by Dowly

If I can keelhaul him afterwards, I'm happy.

Ohhhhh that's sounds promising ... really am impressed with the advances in crew management in this sim.

[Argus00]

Originally Posted by OlegM

LOL a twisted logic I think. Manual should follow the game not the other way round. If the manual is buggy, too shallow (and it is) and has some facts wrong (and it has) there's no need to make the GAME comply to crap in the manual.

OK - untwisted logic, then.

UBI should go for the cheaper fix, which would be to reprint the manual to have it say "The more precise but also more time-consuming method is to take multiple sightings (range + bearing) of a target over a period of time. Using this data and your own speed and course, you can determine the target's speed. An automated method is implemented in the game, BUT IT DOESN'T WORK, SO DON'T BOTHER WITH IT."

[KrvKpt. Falke]

I must say that not-working chronometer (and position keeper - i love it!, and Onkel Neals video ) in SH4 helped me to learn manual targeting (i played SHIII for 2 years with WO assistance ), but i remember how confused i ve been trying to get speed "the old way" (SH3 way).
You wanted to sell SH4 to as much casual, non-hardcore players as possible and at the same time you got rid of auto speed calculation and WO assistance. In my opinion it was wrong move.
You know - i don't need working chronometer now when i know how to calculate speed (and had some SH3 experience so it was easy to learn) but people new to Silent Hunter series must learn it the hard way (especially without "working" manual).

BUT! If you must to choose between fixing chronometer and fixing AI... Well, fix AI

[Rafter11]

I have started using RFB 2.7 mod. It has included a nomograph (something I had never heard of until yesterday). It is simple to use the plotting information with the nomograph to calculate the target speed. So I really don't think we need the Chronometer. However since it looks like 1.3 is coming, and if Ubisoft wants to add it, ok by me.

I am a little puzzled by the AOB picture I get in the periscope/TBT views. They often don't represent the actual AOB. I don't know if that is a bug, my machine problem or just something requiring more skill.

Anyway I think SH IV is a great game that needs some fixing by the devs. RFB 2.7 fixed a lot of the troubles. Now that I hear Ubisoft is going to do 1.3, I am a happy camper.

[Egan]

Although I understand why people are annoyed that the Stopwatch doesn't appear to work as it apparently did in SH3 I can claim to having never used either of them.

I get my speed estimates either from guesses if I'm loosing off a snapshot or through running a manual plot (TMA or whatever you want to call it,) on the nav screen when I have the time to actually stalk enemy shipping. Occasionally I use the Nomograph but I find that I don't even really need to bother with that anymore. This is how I did it in Sh3 as well. I used the watch about twice, got really bad results from it and never tried again. Of course a manual plot would be harder if there was a greater variety in convoy speeds, zig-zagging etc

For me, the top two issues are radar and AI. Radar, in particular, has been bugging me for ages.

[Soundman]

Originally Posted by OlegM

So if, due to printer's screwup, SH4 manual came out with parts belonging to Rainbow 6 Vegas manual, you'd ask "where are the terrorists, slot machines and stun grenades in this game???" :rotfl:

elanaiba explained to you that the feature is not broken, it works as intended. Manual is WRONG. Game is not.

This is rediculous! I must agree with Dowly. The chrono is broken. This was definitely intended to work in the game, if it was not, why would the (non functioning) button be there to send the data to the TDC in the first place! There is even a tool tip while holding the mouse over it saying "send speed to TDC".....Explain that one!

As has been stated, This feature would simulate a member of the crew calcualting speed when the captain would give a bearing, distance and say "mark"... Lower the scope, wait a few minutes, raise the scope, repeat the procedure and then the speed was calculated.

When confronting a convoy, some of us don't have the time to to do all the necessary calculations and/or funtions ourselves, (without pausing the game anyway). And pausing kinda takes away from realism in the first place. So, I feel the chronometer is an important feature, and along with map notations and a few other nonworking items, is an "advertised" feature of the game that does not work and I feel Ubi has broken a contract if it is not implemented. Also, the argument about misprints in the manual being an excuse, many of these items were listed on the Ubi website before the game was released! So, don't give me the "manual should follow the game, instead of the game following the manual" crap.

All that being said, while I still enjoy the game as is, the chrono is first on my list to be fixed although, the AI, crew and damage management are a close second.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by elanaiba

I have something on my chest and wanted to open a civil discussion about it:

One of the issues posted all over the place about SH4 is the chronometer that doesn't calculate the target ships speed, while the manual says it should. True.

But that element is part of the hardcore sub gaming - the 100% manual crowd stuff. The manual targeting bit.

The manual targeting method of sh3 implied you got the speed of the target - with some error - by just pressing a button on the watch. There was no actual gameplay for the player there. No skill.

So why do you guys want it back? Are you actually using "manual targeting", doing the job that most captains did, or not? There is a checkbox that gets you auto targeting... but when you're manual, you do the work.

Hard? Yeah! But its an option...

Dan

P.S. You know the Position Keeper can be used to see whether you got the right speed for the target or not.

Dan,

Yes, I know the PK keeps an accurate picture of what you see in the scope as compared to what the PK shows.....I knew this months ago and attempted to spread the word that if all calculations are correctly set up, the scope image and the PK will match exactly over a period of time. If the image of the vessel through the scope is the same but the PK is off, then you have miscalculated and usually it the speed. Normally I see the AOB per the PK getting ahead which means I have speed set to fast. If the AOB on the PK is falling behind, the my speed is to slow. It is a constant update until in prime firing range.

The chronometer is not a game killer by any means IMHO! Also, the very good Skippers did rough estimations of speed via eyeballing the vessel. It took practice but it worked! No issues with the PK or chronometer for me. I see what you are seeing concering simulation/hardcore/PK and the chronometer.

You know what I really use my watch for in the game????????? I use it to time how quickly I can submerge!!!! That is about it!

[AVGWarhawk]

When confronting a convoy, we don't have the time to to do all the necessary calculations and/or funtions ourselves, (without pausing the game anyway). And pausing kinda takes away from realism in the first place. So, I feel the chronometer is an important feature and it is an "advertised" feature of the game and I feel Ubi has broken a contract if it is not implemented.

I do not understand this post here. Convoy tracking can take hours to set up properly. The nessary calculation are not that difficult. You have plenty of time to set it up. All the vessels are making the same kts, all are at the same AOB(relative) the only difference is range for each vessel. In all reality you are not going to sink the entire convoy in one afternoon. It takes days of end rounds. Expect to sink at least 2-4 vessels at best. Retreat and regroup. So you send of 2 torps, swing scope to next vessel in line, check range fire 2 torps and use the final 2 torps for the next vessel in the line after range check. All you are changing is the range. Go deep and wait!

As a feature, chronometer is broken. I tried it. Is it a game killer, no...IMHO.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by elanaiba
The only thing is - the reason I started this thread - some people treat this missing feature as the number one problem they have with the game and I think we all agree there are much more important things to be fixed.

Definitely not the number one problem and if never fixed this would not bother me. Never used it in SH3 either. The vessels in SH3 were usually doing 7 kts all the time. Got predictable. I always dialed in 7 kts in SH3 and it always worked. Not only that, if COMSUB(SH4) says the convoy near you is doing 9kts and go to attack it.....darn it...the convoy is doing 9 kts just like they said. Who needs the chronometer

Yes, there are more fundamental bugs in the game such as radar that is an integral part of the US submarine.