Black Submarine sailors

[Chock]

Slightly off-topic I know, but to correct things: There was a myth among the bombers crews that the 'Redtails' had never lost a bomber on escort, but it wasn't true. It is true however, that they had a very good record in terms of how well they protected stuff and their kill ratios were very high. And it is also true that many Eighth Air Force bomber squadrons specifically tried to get them as escorts, although some were unaware that the Red-tailed P-51s were flown by black guys.

The main reason for their success was probably owing to the fact that since black guys had such a hard time getting into the cockpit, it's likely that they were probably much better (on average) than a typical white pilot.

However, this doesn't tell the whole story, some of the statistics for bomber losses can be misleading. Most notably: by the time the Redtails were operational, the Luftwaffe was largely on the defensive (putting much of their faith in 'wonder weapons' such as the Heinkel Salamander and Me-262). As a result, losses in Europe in the late stages of the war were considerably less than during the pioneering days of strategic bombing - a time when B-17s and B-24s were taking massive casualties, on raids to targets such as Regensburg, Schweinfurt and Ploesti. But, many of these type of raids took place before the Redtails were operational. In fact, quite a number of late-war daylight bomber crews flew an entire tour without even seeing an enemy fighter.

That's not to take away from the black pilot's guts and skill, of course, which is not in doubt at all.

I'd be happy to see a black guy on my SH4 submarine - after all, he might bring along some Robert Johnson records for the gramophone, then I wouldn't have to listen to all that Vera Lynn/Andrews Sisters stuff.

[wireman]

Originally Posted by OddjobXL

Where did anyone here say the Tuskegee airmen never lost a bomber? I'm really starting to wonder about some of the characters in this thread...

go back about nine posts.

[OddjobXL]

I do stand corrected. I saw another post mentioning the group which didn't make that claim. Suppose some of the posts got my back up a bit. Sorry about that.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by MadMike

The statement that no bomber was lost when escorted by the Tuskeegee airmen is a myth-

"The subsequent report, based on after-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony, was released in March 2007 and documented 25 bombers shot down by enemy fighter aircraft while being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen [10]"

Report: Tuskegee Airmen lost 25 bombers. The Associated Press, 2 April 2007 [3] Access date: 10 April 2007.

(from Wikipedia)

Yours, Mike

Thank you for that correction, but I would like to take you to task for not posting an actual link. I wasted 5 minutes of my library time (I only get an hour) looking it up for myself.

Originally Posted by OddjobXL

Where did anyone here say the Tuskegee airmen never lost a bomber? I'm really starting to wonder about some of the characters in this thread...

I said it earlier on this thread. I was quoting directly from their site. My problem now with the Wikipedia story is that their link to the AP story doesn't work.

Okay, after a little more searching I turned up the article itself (5 more minutes gone).
http://www.boston.com/news/nation/ar...st_25_bombers/

[rman214]

Wow, what a lively dicussion I started!. I thank those who provided factual evidence that black sailors did a lot more than their primary duties as cooks and stewards aboard ship. Perhaps for the game, black enlisted sailors could be recruited in port as desired, giving those opposed the freedom to pick and choose....just my opinion

[yellbird]

I don’t know if anyone is opposed but it is a game and by starting that, someone will want a Mexican, Indian, Asian, all races or we will have having people marching about not their having rights, and then of course we will need rings in the nose and lips.

It can, and will go on and on. If we need that watch TV, lets not beat a dead horse.

[Lorgar]

Just re-skin all the models a 16 colour plaid then everybody will have some representation

[modisch]

Perhaps we need some latino sailors... Maybe specifically Puerto Ricans (*waves flag*).

For example... Marion Frederic Ramirez de Arellano.. Served as division officer on the USS Pickerel. For his contributions on the Pickerel, he was awarded the Silver Star and the Legion of Merit. He was later assigned to the USS Skate (Balao class) where he earned a second Silver Star.

In April 1944 he was given command of the USS Balao for three patrols and later moved on to command Submarine Division 16.

There were a few Puerto Rican admirals too. Yet despite many prominent puerto ricans in service... the majority of puerto ricans served in the segregated 65th Infantry Regiment with little respect. It wasn't until after WWII when they held off the entire 3rd Infantry Division during training exercises did the Army take notice of them. They went on to serve in the Korean War, mainly given suicide missions. Were highly decorated, but suffered disproportionate casualties... up until they finally refused to be sent to their deaths, the entire officer corps was courtmartialed and replaced with white, continental officers. Years later, all of the court martialed were pardoned.

-m

[zzodr]

Originally Posted by rascal101

Your kidding, I thought they did, they do in Australian navy

Aussie chicks are hot.

[joea]

Originally Posted by yellbird

I don’t know if anyone is opposed but it is a game and by starting that, someone will want a Mexican, Indian, Asian, all races or we will have having people marching about not their having rights, and then of course we will need rings in the nose and lips.

It can, and will go on and on. If we need that watch TV, lets not beat a dead horse.

Not at all, we are talking about history...did Indians or Cossacks serve on USN subs during the war? No? Then don't model them. Blacks did, so there is no problem IMHO.

[Phoenix3000]

Guys -

They already have black fella's in SH4 so hopefully this won't get all politically correct - this one's stare gives me the creeps!!

Found him working the radar!

[hyperion2206]

Originally Posted by OddjobXL

Where did anyone here say the Tuskegee airmen never lost a bomber? I'm really starting to wonder about some of the characters in this thread...

Have a look at the book "Strength for the fight. A history of black Americans in the military" by Bernard C. Nalty published in 1986. I don't remember which page it was on but it says that the 99th Fighter Squadron never lost a bomber they were escorting.

[SgtWalt65]

Originally Posted by MadMike

The statement that no bomber was lost when escorted by the Tuskeegee airmen is a myth-

"The subsequent report, based on after-mission reports filed by both the bomber units and Tuskegee fighter groups as well as missing air crew records and witness testimony, was released in March 2007 and documented 25 bombers shot down by enemy fighter aircraft while being escorted by the Tuskegee Airmen [10]"

Report: Tuskegee Airmen lost 25 bombers. The Associated Press, 2 April 2007 [3] Access date: 10 April 2007.

(from Wikipedia)

Yours, Mike

from Wikipedia? I think that Wikipedia has had its reputation somewhat tarnished as of lately for incorrect information on its sight. Anyone can throw information on it, factual or not.
Offical record from the period record no losses with them escorting the bombers. However, they where not always on escort duty and were on seek and destroy. Came to the help of some bomber groups who were in trouble and some were lost that way.
Do not ever trust wikipedia, they are even being torn apart in the news as of lately because some people who were hired to review entries had a particular bias about certain subjects and really screwed the data up. No way to undo it, because they did not keep track of what they edited.

[Sailor Steve]

If either of you had bothered to read my post, you would have found that I backtracked it to the original AP article and posted a link. Seems that the story is true.

On the other hand, it's possible that all the losses are attributable to flak, but I wouldn't count on it; it's too hard to prove one way or the other.