Auto TDC consistently misses (torps arrive late always)

[Penelope_Grey]

Thanks for the help!

[Torcher]

And here I thought I was just a really bad shot regardless of the white "X" and AOB line being damn near close to perfect with a manual setup.

I took akdavis' photo (thanx ak!) and superimposed CC's bearing tool to show the delta in degrees. Note that the bearing tool is not scaled properly for distance but it does show the degree marks. I also darkened up the marks and the torp for better legibility.





Looks like about a 3 degree variance at 1000 (TDC shows 1085 so close enough)

[gnirtS]

I hadnt noticed in manual possibly because im not actually a good enough shot yet - i can hit a ship but not specific as to where.

It could be gyro angle or target speed or torpedo speed being slightly misread by the sims.

Has anyone confirmed it doesnt happen with Mk14s on low speed setting?

In a way it'd make more sense affecting both auto AND manual and could be the same bugin both.

Also, did anyone play with 1.0 and this to see if its in there too ?

[RangerX3X]

Originally Posted by ColonelCuneo

There is no bug! As with SH3, the auto targeting does not account for the time it takes to open the torpedo door. Try hitting "q" and wait 5 seconds before you fire. If you use external view, you can always take a quick peak to make sure the door is fully opened. As long as the target's speed and heading do not change and as long as your sub isn't turning while firing, you should hit precisely where you aimed, everytime.

As clearly stated in my response above, the door is opened and I confirm it by viewing it externally. The torp fires and is out of the ship as I press the fire button.

It is a bug, and quite frankly a killer bug.

[Jungman]

For testing, use the simple setting.

The Torpedo_US.sim file shows the Mark 14 is using the correct speeds of 31 and 46 knots. The Range is in Meters 4100m and 8200m in hex code.

Since a meter is a bit longer by about 10% than yard, all scaling is off by about 10% maybe.

I was testing the run length time of torp M14 fast and slow, it seems as if the calculation only works if you use YARDS, as if the METER raw hex data distance is still being used. It does not quite match up.

I was plotting and measuring raw data off the map, no TDC stuff so to be independent. If the games ruler and scale are hardcoded with math calaculator for the TDC is scaled wrong..it would lead to lagging Mark14 torp???

I give a theory the values of 4100 and 8200 hex inside the file was not converted as the rest of the torpedo data speed. I did not think the actual maximum range would affect TDC result, unless somehow the Meter to Imperial math conversion equation became messed up from SH3.

[akdavis]

Originally Posted by gnirtS

I hadnt noticed in manual possibly because im not actually a good enough shot yet - i can hit a ship but not specific as to where.

It could be gyro angle or target speed or torpedo speed being slightly misread by the sims.

Has anyone confirmed it doesnt happen with Mk14s on low speed setting?

In a way it'd make more sense affecting both auto AND manual and could be the same bugin both.

Also, did anyone play with 1.0 and this to see if its in there too ?

As noted above, this does not effect the Mk. 14 at "low" speed. That hits dead on center with no apparent variations in the TDC's calculations other than the shift in gyro angle. This indicates there is no error in the TDC's target speed. The error seems to lie in the gyro angle compensation for the Mk. 14 at high speed, or the gyro is right, but the Mk.14 is not travelling at the correct speed.

Not sure about other marks of torpedo, not sure about v1.0.

Originally Posted by Jungman

For testing, use the simple setting.

THe Torpedo_US.sim file shows the Mark 14 is using the correct speeds of 31 and 46 knots. The Range is in Meters 4100m and 8200m in hex code.

Since a meter is a bit longer by about 10% than yard, all scaling is off by about 10% maybe.

I was testing the run length time of torp M14 fast and slow, it seems as if the calculation only works if you use YARDS, as if the METER distance is stil being used. It does not quite match up.

I was plotiing and measuring raw data off the map, no TDC stuff so to be independent. If the games ruler and scale or hardcoded math calaculator for the TDC is scaled wrong..it would lead to lagging Mark14 torp???

But this would cause errors at both high and low speed. In fact, the error at low speed would be even worse, I would think. I know the .sim file says 46 knots, but how do we know that is what is actually happening in the game?

[AVGWarhawk]

I always use low speed on the torps. I'm just used to this function. At any rate, I do not have issues with the TDC using slow on the torps. Usually bad calculation on target speeds get me in trouble.

[akdavis]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

I always use low speed on the torps. I'm just used to this function. At any rate, I do not have issues with the TDC using slow on the torps. Usually bad calculation on target speeds get me in trouble.

Well, then that would explain...

Well, ok, in manual mode the TDC works fine for me.

[Jungman]

I measure my boat moving at 11 knots left to right, the time in seconds to travel 1 nautical mile = 2025.37 yards. Yet I swear it was only 1835 something by using the in game map ruler scale. I am using the Imperial setting in gameplay.

Guess what? 1 nm =~ 1835 meters. is the game scale for Meter and Yards correct?

Maybe slow torpedo error is less affect than a fast one in proportion.

Another experiment, I set the Range in the attack map and the map will show how much time it will take the torpedo to travel that long green line (it is displayed). As a second point to measure I time how long it goes until it runs out and stops at it maximum range.

I find that the numbers are off?? by about 7%.

One question is do the slow torpedo hit 'exactly' dead center using Auto? The error should still show up, but for one not as bad since it is moving slower relative to Targe Speed. In the calculation the error is reduced more than you think, but it should still be there somewhat.

[AVGWarhawk]

Give slow a try. Seriously, I have no issues with slow setting. The only time I use fast is for warships. Also, I get into 1500 feet or closer and this alleviates any small miscalculation on speed. It is just the way I skipper my sub when attacking

[AVGWarhawk]

Just a thought, if the game originally came in meters and then patched to show imperial. The mechanics of the game are still in meters but the picture we see is feet instead of meters. Yet the torps fire as if on a meter scale and not imperial measurement. In other words, our eyes deceive us thinking we are using feet but the actual mechanics within the game is still in meters? Further out you are from target the worse the calculation gets?


Just wondering:hmm:

[Jungman]

I am going to do some more testing. It could be that it only affect Fast Mark14 torpedo only and it is a specific hardcode error in the game equation used for the Auto TDC.

I do suspect the ruler scaling in the game is using Meter and Imperial mix matched.

The error is not proportional from slow speed to high speed, the Target speed must be taken into account relative to the Torpedo.

Man, this is wierd. I need to test more, to get the above results in the picture. I am using Auto TDC, Imperial measurement. Maybe the Patch that allows switching from Meter to Imperial had a small error.

[Jungman]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Just a thought, if the game originally came in meters and then patched to show imperial. The mechanics of the game are still in meters but the picture we see is feet instead of meters. Yet the torps fire as if on a meter scale and not imperial measurement. In other words, our eyes deceive us thinking we are using feet but the actual mechanics within the game is still in meters? Further out you are from target the worse the calculation gets?


Just wondering:hmm:

I just saw your post. Yes that is what my data is leading me to think.
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BTY Even the map scale in the above picture of attack map shows scale in Meters and he is using Imperial I believe... I cannot read it. In my game, the Attack map show the scale symbol as '250 Meter' even though I have it set on Imperial.

Try timing the torpedo to range and see what speeds you get. It is not what you think. Einstein's time-space warp the world by 10% ratio of Meters to Yard.

[akdavis]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

Just a thought, if the game originally came in meters and then patched to show imperial. The mechanics of the game are still in meters but the picture we see is feet instead of meters. Yet the torps fire as if on a meter scale and not imperial measurement. In other words, our eyes deceive us thinking we are using feet but the actual mechanics within the game is still in meters? Further out you are from target the worse the calculation gets?


Just wondering:hmm:

I doubt it. Why would Mk. 14s consistently hit point of aim on low speed, then consistently miss aiming point when switched to high speed, with both auto and manual solutions? If it were a universal measurements error, all torpedos and all speeds would have problems. Also, how could the TDC perfectly track the ships contact on the attack map if the measurements were out of whack? It would introduce all sorts of errors with the TDC calculations relative to the ships actual position. For all I can tell, the ship is exactly where the TDC believes it is. The sim just doesn't know how to properly compensate with gyro angle for the Mk. 14's high speed, for whatever reason. Furthermore, it has still not been determined if this is only occuring with left to right solutions. I kinda feel it is, but don't have a controlled scenario to test this.

Originally Posted by Jungman

One question is do the slow torpedo hit 'exactly' dead center using Auto? The error should still show up, but for one not as bad since it is moving slower relative to Targe Speed. In the calculation the error is reduced more than you think, but it should still be there somewhat.

Slow Mk. 14s hit exactly at point of aim/computed impact point, both auto and manual (with a good solution)

[JSF]

Originally Posted by StandingCow

Open your tubes first.

Thanks!...