Here we go again-Ukraine once again pt2

[Jimbuna]

All wars bring with them casualties unfortunately Markus but hopefully as few as possible.

[mapuc]

Let us help the Ukrainians until the end of the war or until some kind of peace treaty is made.(This is my personal standpoint)

There are voices here in Denmark and Sweden, that by helping Ukraine we are postpone the suffering among the civilians-and we thereby should stop sending military stuff, medical aid and/or money.

Markus

[Jimbuna]

Nothing will stop Russia I'm afraid unless NATO come up with a solution because NATO is the only entity Putin is wary of.

[Jeff-Groves]

Originally Posted by mapuc

Let us help the Ukrainians until the end of the war or until some kind of peace treaty is made.(This is my personal standpoint)

There are voices here in Denmark and Sweden, that by helping Ukraine we are postpone the suffering among the civilians-and we thereby should stop sending military stuff, medical aid and/or money.

Markus

Now that's a good thought. Maybe the USA should have ended the suffering in Europe earlier during Hitlers rampage by just letting you all handle it yourselves.

[Catfish]

^ i would prefer to assist Ukraine in a way that the war is ends soon with Ukraine getting back its territories. And this will only work with massive support.
Any peace treaty with Russia will be seen as a weakness and appeasement by Putin and his cronies, and they will be trying to invade again in a few years unless we put an end to their imperialism now.

[Jeff-Groves]

^You may have missed the sarcasim I intended.
Had the USA left Europe on it's own in the 1940's?
There'd probably be no action in Ukraine. Nor voices to complain in Denmark or Sweden today.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ i would prefer to assist Ukraine in a way that the war is ends soon with Ukraine getting back its territories. And this will only work with massive support.
Any peace treaty with Russia will be seen as a weakness and appeasement by Putin and his cronies, and they will be trying to invade again in a few years unless we put an end to their imperialism now.

Precisely

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Jeff-Groves

Now that's a good thought. Maybe the USA should have ended the suffering in Europe earlier during Hitlers rampage by just letting you all handle it yourselves.

I translated your comment to Danish and posted it with some extra words on a friends wall. He had posted a Danish article about just this-We should stop sending help to Ukraine.

Now I await any answer

Markus

[Skybird]

[Süddeutsche Zeitung] In Ukraine, an overwhelming majority in a poll opposed compromises with wartime adversary Russia in exchange for a peace deal. According to the results of two renowned institutes, more than 90 percent of the approximately 2,000 respondents were against ceding territory. Almost 74 percent ruled out renouncing membership in the NATO military alliance. A reduction in the number of troops in the army in peacetime was rejected by 80 percent.

At the same time, however, only just under 49 percent of Ukrainians saw a positive development of events in their own country. Last December, after the successful expulsion of Russian occupiers from northern Ukraine and large parts of Kharkiv and Kherson regions, nearly 60 percent still believed that.

Among the demands of Russia, the aggressor, is that Ukrainians relinquish state territory in the east and south, including the Crimean peninsula annexed in 2014. Ukraine should also refrain from joining the Western military alliance NATO, which is enshrined in the constitution. In addition, Kiev should agree to extensive demilitarization and grant more rights to the Russian minority in the country. Moscow currently controls nearly 20 percent of Ukraine's territory.

The survey was compiled from August 9-15 in government-controlled regions excluding Luhansk Oblast, Donetsk Oblast, and the Black Sea Crimean Peninsula. A total of 2019 adult Ukrainians were interviewed in person. The margin of error is not to exceed 2.3 percent.

----------------

So they say, "We will continue to fight". Okay, the question of whether or not it is moral to continue military support has been answered. Because the only entity that can legitimately answer the question of whether to continue to resist or to surrender to the aggressor is the victim, nobody else.

Originally Posted by Catfish

^ i would prefer to assist Ukraine in a way that the war is ends soon with Ukraine getting back its territories. And this will only work with massive support.
Any peace treaty with Russia will be seen as a weakness and appeasement by Putin and his cronies, and they will be trying to invade again in a few years unless we put an end to their imperialism now.

You probably have red/seen/heard of Medwedev's latest tirade. Sometimes even Goebbels sounded like a layman, compared to this scumbag.


But it shows that without Putin things may become miuch worse. Domnian parts of the military and seucirty aparatus want to escalate and are not satisfied with Putin's "softness". They especially want unlimited generla mobilization to cover Ukraine territory with a 1.5 m thick layer of Russian and Ukrainian bodies. More bodies than Ukraine has bullets to kill them all, thats the logic.

Originally Posted by Jimbuna

Nothing will stop Russia I'm afraid unless NATO come up with a solution because NATO is the only entity Putin is wary of.

Unfortunately he is also aware of the psyhcological weakness of Wetsenr societies, whcih is a fact imo, and he may rate this as more decisive than NATO's military abilities (with all its low ammo stocks of European arsenals and the lesser interest of states to fight Russia the further away from it they are in the West of the continent...)

Lets face it, Europeans are too comfortable to take care of their own freedom and countries, the brunt of the fighting thus would be carried by Americans again. I cannot criticise them if they are not eager to do so (again). If I were American, I woudl say "No, not again. Its your turn."

Its our Europe, it should be our job. But we will NEVER pick it up, I'm afraid. The lousy state most of our militaries are in (not just the pitiful German one), speaks volumes. And Germany has fully pulled out of its Zeitenwende promise, and has officially sacked all implied fund raises. That tells all, doesn't it. Worse still, debts from other policy areas and spending in those areas , will be counted as positive saldi of the German defence budget in the budget for 2024 to make it look bigger than it is and to appease NATO with financial phantoms and money that does not exist. Like they already do with troop contingents they report as available but that do not exist. - Your read that right, trust your eyes. Insanity rules. Rationality and responsibility got murdered in their beds long time ago.

[tonschk]

Ex-CIA: US Pentagon PANICS As Ukraine Collapses

[Jimbuna]

[Jimbuna]

[Skybird]

Ukrainian intelligence reports Russia is sinking its own ferries around the Kerch Bridge to protect itself from Ukrainian drone attacks.

[Exocet25fr]

Ukraine will be unable to defeat Russia on the battlefield as Moscow has more men and an “impressive” advantage in firepower, retired Italian general Marco Bertolini has said (ex-NATO general)!

“The Ukrainian victory is inconceivable. We must take note of this fact and sit at the negotiating table, his war should’ve been stopped much earlier, but in recent months the rhetoric of ‘we will win’ has been cultivated, fueling the expectations in the public opinion of a victory that is impossible on the ground. The Ukrainians will not prevail!

[mapuc]

Originally Posted by Exocet25fr

Ukraine will be unable to defeat Russia on the battlefield as Moscow has more men and an “impressive” advantage in firepower, retired Italian general Marco Bertolini has said (ex-NATO general)!

“The Ukrainian victory is inconceivable. We must take note of this fact and sit at the negotiating table, his war should’ve been stopped much earlier, but in recent months the rhetoric of ‘we will win’ has been cultivated, fueling the expectations in the public opinion of a victory that is impossible on the ground. The Ukrainians will not prevail!

More men-How is the morale among the Russian soldiers ?
It's low as I understand it-Which mean it doesn't matter how many thousand more soldiers Russia has, if their morale is really bad.

Impressive firepower- Indeed they have, but how many shells are being used to hit some Ukrainian war material, like a tank, artillery etc ?

Russian artillery has not the same perfect aim as the Ukrainian has with their french Caesar or M777 Howitzer.

Ukraine need 1-2 sometimes more shots to kill a Russian tank, while Russia need more.

Markus