Ubisoft announces Silent Hunter 5 - Page 32

Archangel · 08-21-09, 10:06 PM

This is awesome news for me, I played SH3, and skipped SH4 because of my studies, but hopefully by the time SH5 hits the shelves then I`ll be in for another great round of sub warfare.

I have read a bit about the new features and I look forward to it.

Sigh....adding another game to my "must have" list, it is far from crowded but everything takes time.

Good thing about a game like this for me is that it is a what I call a "cozy" game which is relatively easy to jump in and out from, and I only play the SH series in SP so thats another issue for me.

Looking forward to setting off out on patrol and walk around in the sub while sitting at my desk drinking hot choclate

Dave Kay · 08-21-09, 11:38 PM

Very exciting and entertaining posibilities here and I welcome that because I'm very passionate about sub-sim gaming. But my biggest question can be summed up in a word: Wolfpacks---- will this version FINALLY have them? IMHO; we sub-simmers have been accepting bottom-crumbs long enough. And without wolfpacks, this newer version of the game will be just more eye-candy... for those so inclined.

For me, and for that alone, workable wolfpacks would make this newest version very worthwhile and I don't care if they want to charge $100 bucks for the darn game--- I'd happily pay it. Are wolfpacks going to finally be included in this game? For crying out loud---- AOD had wolfpacks and we're talking about DOS 6.2 running on 486 processors!

Pardon me for yelling, but with the technology in hardware and software that is available today why is this, THE MOST CRUCIAL part of the U-Boat war in the North Atlantic; WOLFPAKS, not attainable for this modern version of a sub-sim? Wanna' talk about immersion? Hello? UBI? SubSim-ers? Anyone listening?

A simple question to all who post here: What would Microsoft Flight-Sim be like without air-traffic control?

And I digress.

Arclight · 08-22-09, 12:07 AM

I'm still not convinced Wolfpacks would be a good idea.

First of all, multiple AI controlled subs would be a severe burden on the CPU, limiting the game to above-average systems. The AI would also have to be pretty complex, a costly and timeconsuming endeavour. From a business pov, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

It could also hamper gameplay: one of your pack-mates gets spotted or hits a target, just as you're launching your own attack. Targets start to maneuver, and your attack is botched. How exactly you would coördinate strikes with the pack isn't clear to me either, imho it would leed to a lot of frustration. The AI would have to be on par with a human for those strategies to really pay off, which is completely unreasonable to expect.

Still, it would be an interesting feature, completely awesome if it can be done properly, but I'm not really sure it's even possible within the current constraints (limited budget and time, tech-level of AI).

I would love to be proven wrong.

JScones · 08-22-09, 12:36 AM

You don't need to accurately model wolfpacks, just simulate wolfpacks. To that end the GWX team did a commendable job with SH3 through some lateral thinking and audio/visual sense combination. If it can be reasonably simulated through a third party mod, then surely it can be simulated more robustly within the core game code.

Remember, there was about 20nm between each u-boat in a wolfpack patrol line, so setting one up could be effectively simulated through radio messages.

Contact could again be controlled primarily through the coordinated use of radio and visual cues (such as explosions of ships in convoys). IRL attacks were coordinated via radio, which also had its downside as Allied Huff Duff could intercept the messages thus exposing the position of the U-boats (hence why wolfpacks became less effective to the point where they were canned).

Thus you have the "sense" of not being alone but without the performance hit of AI U-boat modelling. A reasonable compromise IMHO.

Have a read through U-100's KTB for their second patrol for a sense of what could be achieved through mere audio/visual cues.

BTW, losing good shots because a colleague got in first was sometimes par for the course I'm afraid.

Here's Erich Topp's comments on Wolfpack tactics... http://www.combatsim.com/memb123/htm/nov98/uboats.htm

Graf Paper · 08-22-09, 01:05 AM

I think what's going through players' minds when they think "wolfpack" is something more akin to "Das Boot" where U-96 worked in close proximity to other u-boats when attacking that convoy.

Historically, patrol pickets may have been strung out but, once the wolves caught scent of their prey, they coverged to attack, sometimes in such close quarters that near misses and hits from friendly fire did happen.

Maybe using visual cues, like ships exploding from simulated torpedo "hits" by other imaginary u-boats and hearing those phantom torps running when you listen in on the hydro would work well but there is a certain psychology at work here where the player may feel a better sense of "camaraderie" in knowing he's not alone by spotting another periscope or conning tower in an attack, or witnessing the escorts savagely attacking one of your fellow kaleuns.

So when does work on SH5 Commander begin, Herr Jones?

JScones · 08-22-09, 01:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graf Paper

I think what's going through players' minds when they think "wolfpack" is something more akin to "Das Boot" where U-96 worked in close proximity to other u-boats when attacking that convoy.

Yeah, but I hope SH5 is not subtitled "The Das Boot Video Game" (C 2009 OneLifeCrisis). :rotfl:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graf Paper

Historically, patrol pickets may have been strung out but, once the wolves caught scent of their prey, they coverged to attack, sometimes in such close quarters that near misses and hits from friendly fire did happen.

Maybe using visual cues, like ships exploding from simulated torpedo "hits" by other imaginary u-boats and hearing those phantom torps running when you listen in on the hydro would work well but there is a certain psychology at work here where the player may feel a better sense of "camaraderie" in knowing he's not alone by spotting another periscope or conning tower in an attack, or witnessing the escorts savagely attacking one of your fellow kaleuns.

Absolutely. Surface night attacks would be where the visuals would really need to kick in. Wouldn't it be awesome to see beyond the burning convoy the subtle silhouette of a comrade VIIC? But, see my comment above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Graf Paper

So when does work on SH5 Commander begin, Herr Jones?

LOL! I'm hoping, really hoping, there won't need to be one (yeah, I said that for SH4, but this time...). If SH5 maintains some of the changes that SH4 implemented, then some of the SH3Cmdr features will be superfluous. And hopefully SH5 will introduce some more of SH3Cmdr's features (ie nightclub, editable patrol log, malfunctions/sabotage, personalised crew management, variable randomisation) to make an SH5Cmdr unnecessary, or at least greatly reduced in scope.

If, however, the need becomes no more than parameter tweaking, then I'll leave that to far superior tools that will undoubtedly be developed by coders like skwasjer.

In all seriousness, I will consider developing an SH5Cmdr, and if the devs feel the need, interest or inclination to contact me about features that are out of their scope but maybe suitable for SH5Cmdr's scope, then I'm all ears.

But do you really want to again put up with my condescending, arrogant and abusive responses to everyone's numbnut questions?:rotfl:

08-22-09, 01:34 AM

Classical wolfpack formation was made in arc style in front of approaching convoy, so that the risk of friendly fire was minimum. I've seen this in one documentry movie about u-boats, but couldn't find the picture on web to show you.

JScones · 08-22-09, 01:40 AM

I know the image - wasn't it on The World At War? I remember seeing a screen where the U-boats are arced in front of a convoy, with successive U-boat icons moving towards the convoy and back again, and ship icons changing to burning icons.

08-22-09, 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

I know the image - wasn't it on The World At War? I remember seeing a screen where the U-boats are arced in front of a convoy, with successive U-boat icons moving towards the convoy and back again, and ship icons changing to burning icons.

Looks like this was shown in this movie:
Wolf.Pack.U-Boats.In.The.Atlantic.-.1939-1944.avi

JScones · 08-22-09, 01:48 AM

YES! World At War Episode 10.

Thanks for the memory as it's been 20 years since I've seen it!

08-22-09, 01:58 AM

Isn't this the same movie:
World a war episode 10: Wolf.Pack.U-Boats.In.The.Atlantic.-.1939-1944.avi ?

SinisterDexter · 08-22-09, 01:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arclight

I'm still not convinced Wolfpacks would be a good idea.

First of all, multiple AI controlled subs would be a severe burden on the CPU, limiting the game to above-average systems. The AI would also have to be pretty complex, a costly and timeconsuming endeavour. From a business pov, it doesn't make a lot of sense.

I haven't read the whole thread, but what about this out of the box idea:

Would it be unreasonable to have a player control more than one sub? Sure there's a loss of realism in that you would know what the other sub(s) is doing/seeing, and wouldn't seem like the other sub(s) were operating independently, BUT it would let you set up attacks with more than one sub and it would place the burden on the player rather than additional AI load on the CPU. It seems easy enough to use something like different colored borders on the screen to indicate which sub you are commanding and let you switch/cycle between them. I even imagine it would be possible (though more demanding and less likely) to have multiple windows open for each sub like Flight Simulator lets you have different views.

I'm not pushing for this - it just occurred to me as an option for creating the Wolfpack experience that many seem to want.

JScones · 08-22-09, 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Contact

Isn't this the same movie:
World a war episode 10: Wolf.Pack.U-Boats.In.The.Atlantic.-.1939-1944.avi ?

One and the same, yes.

I shiver whenever I hear both the World At War intro music and Laurence Olivier's voice.

08-22-09, 02:03 AM

I guess for wolfpacks there has to be a smart and flexible AI too. Moderate accuracy of AI u-boats could be acceptable I think.

08-22-09, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JScones

One and the same, yes.

I shiver whenever I hear both the World At War intro music and Laurence Olivier's voice.

You may also want to download and watch these that I have as well (if you haven't already):

(en)Discovery submarines - sharks of steel - hunter and hunted.avi

Battlefield - 4010 - The War Against the U-boats.avi

Kriegsmarine 1914-1945.avi

Midget Submarines.avi

U-Boat War [BeLight].avi

08-21-09, 10:06 PM	#466
Archangel Seaman Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 35 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	This is awesome news for me, I played SH3, and skipped SH4 because of my studies, but hopefully by the time SH5 hits the shelves then I`ll be in for another great round of sub warfare. I have read a bit about the new features and I look forward to it. Sigh....adding another game to my "must have" list, it is far from crowded but everything takes time. Good thing about a game like this for me is that it is a what I call a "cozy" game which is relatively easy to jump in and out from, and I only play the SH series in SP so thats another issue for me. Looking forward to setting off out on patrol and walk around in the sub while sitting at my desk drinking hot choclate __________________ \"Beast of morality\"

08-22-09, 12:07 AM	#468
Arclight Navy Seal Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Land of windmills, tulips, wooden shoes and cheese. Lots of cheese. Posts: 8,467 Downloads: 53 Uploads: 10	I'm still not convinced Wolfpacks would be a good idea. First of all, multiple AI controlled subs would be a severe burden on the CPU, limiting the game to above-average systems. The AI would also have to be pretty complex, a costly and timeconsuming endeavour. From a business pov, it doesn't make a lot of sense. It could also hamper gameplay: one of your pack-mates gets spotted or hits a target, just as you're launching your own attack. Targets start to maneuver, and your attack is botched. How exactly you would coördinate strikes with the pack isn't clear to me either, imho it would leed to a lot of frustration. The AI would have to be on par with a human for those strategies to really pay off, which is completely unreasonable to expect. Still, it would be an interesting feature, completely awesome if it can be done properly, but I'm not really sure it's even possible within the current constraints (limited budget and time, tech-level of AI). I would love to be proven wrong. __________________ Contritium praecedit superbia.

08-22-09, 12:36 AM	#469
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	You don't need to accurately model wolfpacks, just simulate wolfpacks. To that end the GWX team did a commendable job with SH3 through some lateral thinking and audio/visual sense combination. If it can be reasonably simulated through a third party mod, then surely it can be simulated more robustly within the core game code. Remember, there was about 20nm between each u-boat in a wolfpack patrol line, so setting one up could be effectively simulated through radio messages. Contact could again be controlled primarily through the coordinated use of radio and visual cues (such as explosions of ships in convoys). IRL attacks were coordinated via radio, which also had its downside as Allied Huff Duff could intercept the messages thus exposing the position of the U-boats (hence why wolfpacks became less effective to the point where they were canned). Thus you have the "sense" of not being alone but without the performance hit of AI U-boat modelling. A reasonable compromise IMHO. Have a read through U-100's KTB for their second patrol for a sense of what could be achieved through mere audio/visual cues. BTW, losing good shots because a colleague got in first was sometimes par for the course I'm afraid. Here's Erich Topp's comments on Wolfpack tactics... http://www.combatsim.com/memb123/htm/nov98/uboats.htm Last edited by JScones; 08-22-09 at 01:09 AM.

08-22-09, 01:05 AM	#470
Graf Paper Ace of the Deep Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Pacific Northwest United States Posts: 1,146 Downloads: 41 Uploads: 2	I think what's going through players' minds when they think "wolfpack" is something more akin to "Das Boot" where U-96 worked in close proximity to other u-boats when attacking that convoy. Historically, patrol pickets may have been strung out but, once the wolves caught scent of their prey, they coverged to attack, sometimes in such close quarters that near misses and hits from friendly fire did happen. Maybe using visual cues, like ships exploding from simulated torpedo "hits" by other imaginary u-boats and hearing those phantom torps running when you listen in on the hydro would work well but there is a certain psychology at work here where the player may feel a better sense of "camaraderie" in knowing he's not alone by spotting another periscope or conning tower in an attack, or witnessing the escorts savagely attacking one of your fellow kaleuns. So when does work on SH5 Commander begin, Herr Jones? __________________ Still sailing the high seas, hunting convoys with those who join me.

08-21-09, 11:38 PM	#467
Dave Kay Gunner Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 93 Downloads: 25 Uploads: 0	Very exciting and entertaining posibilities here and I welcome that because I'm very passionate about sub-sim gaming. But my biggest question can be summed up in a word: Wolfpacks---- will this version FINALLY have them? IMHO; we sub-simmers have been accepting bottom-crumbs long enough. And without wolfpacks, this newer version of the game will be just more eye-candy... for those so inclined. For me, and for that alone, workable wolfpacks would make this newest version very worthwhile and I don't care if they want to charge $100 bucks for the darn game--- I'd happily pay it. Are wolfpacks going to finally be included in this game? For crying out loud---- AOD had wolfpacks and we're talking about DOS 6.2 running on 486 processors! Pardon me for yelling, but with the technology in hardware and software that is available today why is this, THE MOST CRUCIAL part of the U-Boat war in the North Atlantic; WOLFPAKS, not attainable for this modern version of a sub-sim? Wanna' talk about immersion? Hello? UBI? SubSim-ers? Anyone listening? A simple question to all who post here: What would Microsoft Flight-Sim be like without air-traffic control? And I digress.

08-22-09, 01:34 AM	#472
Contact Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Classical wolfpack formation was made in arc style in front of approaching convoy, so that the risk of friendly fire was minimum. I've seen this in one documentry movie about u-boats, but couldn't find the picture on web to show you.

08-22-09, 01:40 AM	#473
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	I know the image - wasn't it on The World At War? I remember seeing a screen where the U-boats are arced in front of a convoy, with successive U-boat icons moving towards the convoy and back again, and ship icons changing to burning icons.

08-22-09, 01:48 AM	#475
JScones Navy Seal Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 5,501 Downloads: 19 Uploads: 0	YES! World At War Episode 10. Thanks for the memory as it's been 20 years since I've seen it!

08-22-09, 01:58 AM	#476
Contact Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Isn't this the same movie: World a war episode 10: Wolf.Pack.U-Boats.In.The.Atlantic.-.1939-1944.avi ?

08-22-09, 02:03 AM	#479
Contact Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I guess for wolfpacks there has to be a smart and flexible AI too. Moderate accuracy of AI u-boats could be acceptable I think.