Huge pro-EU rally grips Ukraine

[Flamebatter90]

The Russian defence ministry did deny the ultimatum claim yesterday, so who knows.

[BossMark]

Putin persecutes homosexuals in his own country, then goes and enters another country through the back door.

Very mixed messages from Russia.

[nikimcbee]

Originally Posted by BossMark

[Flamebatter90]

Looks like bunch of Ukrainian soldiers from Belbek base went over to the Russians, unarmed.





ETA: Different twitter feeds from reporters at Belbek say the Ukrainians are demanding access to the planes at the Belbek airstrip.

"Colonel Mamchur (in the background) talks with Russian officers, demanding to be allowed access to the planes"

[Jimbuna]

So now we have the stand off situation with Russia withdrawing the 150,000 troops that were exercising on its western border but still having 16,000 troops in the Crimea.

One tiny chink of light but putin is certainly negotiating from a position of strength:

Russia is pushing for the crisis to be resolved by returning to an agreement signed in Kiev last month, which was overtaken by events.

Moscow wants the current government in Kiev to be replaced by a broad coalition representing what it calls all political forces in the country, with presidential elections being held in December.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26430846

[Alex]

Hmmm.

To put it bluntly, I'll start by speaking shortly about the way the french media covered events until now - but I bet you can find the absolute same **** in all the EU. So this post is directed to people living in the EU - I'm letting the US and UK aside of course, De Gaulle didn't want the UK to integrate the EU for good reasons.

Watching tv, anyone most likely can notice there is a bias towards the ukrainian opposition, against the ukrainian government, and particularly against Russia.
Just to give you a little example, 2 days ago some french tv channel was giving some news related to that mess taking place on Maidan square in Kiev. The female journalist was interviewing some young ukrainian student, who basically was saying something like "on Maidan square there are students and other people carrying firearms, getting ready to attack the police".
I've got to see that news at tv one and only time.
And then, basta.
Didn't see the same news at tv a single time afterwards. The tv channel didn't show the same report any more, for the simple reason that news didn't fit the EU/western editorial line, most probably.
[Later, we'll get to hear about the freedom of the press in France ]

Such a thing shows how much the media falls into line with the government, its policy, its political decisions, and how much it's really not possible to present another point of view than what we can call "the official one".
Then, I bet absolutely all people have got to see how much all tv channels started plaguing everyone with a certain kind of infos - anti-Russia,
anti-Putin, trumpeting how much Ukraine needs its independence from Russia - but here, allow me to remind everyone of some important facts !

I really can't see why everyone is looking for engaging in the same aggressive and negative attitude the media is doing its best to give all people in Europe, so to force everyone in Europe to think the us of A's way, and to see Russia as Europe's worst enemy. Russia can very well be part of Europe, and such a Europe - I mean including Russia - may well be very desirable in fact, as such an alliance would allow the european union to get itself somewhat detached from the diktats of the united states of America. The EU would get as powerful as the united states of America, and that would allow the Euro to get more powerful too !

[french point of view there]
But it's not the point of view of the european union elites, in whose attitudes anyone can feel how much the actual ukrainian mess is nothing less than a revenge against Russia following what Russia has been able to do in the Middle East ; i.e. France did loose the battle there, and especially the syrian one that was kind of the main one. And then, we get to see those ukrainian events being used to settle our scores with Russia - it all started with that president of ours boycotting the opening of the olympic games in Sochi. Right afterwards, the media coverage - feeling free to call russian diplomatic directors every name under the sun at times - reported that despite all concessions given by the ukrainian president, he absolutely needs to resign.

And here again, I believe one needs to be very objective.
Winds of change are blowing in Ukraine these days, true. The country is kind of split in two, that's right. You can find those who believe in Russia and the help this country can bring them (and they're not wrong, as a matter of fact : Russia mentioned it's willing to give 15 billion dollars to Ukraine, lowered the gas price, and offered 2 more billion dollars some days ago to Ukraine to get it out of the crisis).
While on the other side, you can find the european dream - yet we still need to mention there's not much of an european dream in Ukraine actually : a part of the population is simply against Yanukovich, against the russian influence, and corruption. And I absolutely understand the point of view of those who live in western Ukraine. However, the european union is stuck in that bloody financial crisis currently, and didn't offer to give much to Ukraine on an economical point of view : the EU just said it's willing to let's say intercede with the opposition to strenghten democracy, or something like that.
And the serious question is : can you find some cold, hard cash on the negotiating table of the EU, that would get Ukraine out of the economical crisis ?

Very obviously, the answer is "no".
We have nothing at all. That is the european dream, ladies and gentlemen.
I'm willing to believe in that dream, you know, but there may well be another dream out there, one that could be a little brighter, the one to make Russia a part of Europe - and here I wish to remind everyone that Putin, when it comes to the missile defence shield that is supposed to be put up by NATO and the Americans, Putin made the suggestion to make it a joint project with Russia, as Russia could contribute to make it real.


In fact, what does the european union is seeking now ?
Nothing more than the US diktat : like Russia needs to be broken up, and isolated absolutely. Otherwise, a strong Russia being able to stand up to the us of A's interests can not be accepted. And so that's what we can see at tv everyday : a russian vision of Europe being independant and autonomous, and the other vision, a vision of Europe that never stops working in the interests of the united states of America, in order to bring Russia under the control of the united states of America and their policy.

I understand the american and english point of view on what's happening these days.
But if I'm not mistaken, there's also a good part of people living outside the US and UK in here. Didn't read everyone's message posted until now in this thread, I just read a few. And while reading them, I felt like I was at the saloon in Once upon a time in the West, everyone being at the bar enjoying his beer, while many reload their guns and play with their spurs and all...


US geopolitics is fine, but you may come up to different conclusions if you try to see the situation from your own countries' point of view and interests, period. Use your brain instead of reading the bbc and times news, that's all I'm saying.

[Oberon]

The trouble is, I think we've gone too far down the road to turn back up it now, the chance to bring Russia into a co-operative stance with the EU was around 2000 or so, but we never really took Russia seriously, laughing at the shambles that it had found itself in after the fall of communism, or still treating it as the communist enemy, taking the opportunity of a weakened Russia to push the border between East and West closer to Russias territory.
Now our birds have come home to roost, we have pushed Russia for the past two decades and now Russia is pushing back and its doing so having come from being the underdog of the 1990s to a position of strength. If you can only credit the governing forces of Russia with one thing, it's the dramatic turnaround of Russia post-Yeltsin from a nation sliding into decline back into a superpower. It wasn't a pretty process, nor one that we would support in the west, but you cannot argue with the fact that Russia is stronger now than it was in the 1990s.

So, where does that leave us? Well, pretty much exactly where we were before the Berlin wall came down but with a different line up of nations. The shadow of the Cold War is still hanging over Europe, Russia is still considered a hostile force by many, and when it conducts operations like this, even though it is similar to actions undertaken by Western nations in recent history, it is automatically reassigned its position of Cold war enemy.

Still, it's good news for the military-industrial complex (TM) which was facing potential cuts in the near future, at least with Russia being given its Cold War status back they can make a case for the continuation of massive military spending...

And when it comes to news, I have also noticed an east/west split in regards to how the news regards the current Ukrainian regime, which is why I've been sampling news from both. You'll notice in this thread that I've been posting stories from both the BBC and Russia Today, which both have their own slants on the story. The reddit live thread which I have also linked to is also quite useful for getting live updates of the situation on the ground, from twitter accounts of reporters in the area, as well as news stations from around the world, from the BBC to Al'Jazerra to RT.

I'll post it again for the benefit of those reading this page:
http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2r...ciytwcxadi?t=t

[Skybird]

I hoped that this article would get translated by them for their international edition, but so far they haven't. If they do it later, I'll post it then. It sheds some light on how stupid and provocative the new government in Kiew has acted indeed and that they have little reason to complain about Russia's reactions - if they do not honour treaties they just signed with Western diplomats, promises they just gave, and bring fascists and Russia-haters into many governmental seats that immediately pass a law that aims at discriminating Russians and limit Russian language - that is spoken as primary language in one third of the Ukraine's provinces.

http://www.spiegel.de/politik/auslan...-a-956680.html

It reminds me a,lot of Georgia. There, the Wets immediately knew that the Russians were all evil and bad and criminal and so on. And the more light was shed onto Shaakashvili'S activities, the more the questionable basis of his claims and his own criminal acts and his own criminal nature was revealed. It ended with European diplomacy fully bypassing and ignoring Shaakashvili in the years to come.

The new government in Kiew does not seem to be much better. Has it come to anybody's thinking in the West that Putin maybe planned this operation obviously since so long in advance, because he really knows it much better than us naive Westerners with what kind of breed he is dealing with in Ukrainean politics, and that Klitschko's Udar party would be too weak and too naive to make a difference...? It were the fascists and radicals, the ultranationalists and lobbyists of oligarchs who immediately took over control on the Maidan when Yanokovich was ousted - not truly democratic, humanistic philantropists. The ultra rightwingers form the biggest faction in the current Kiew government -and they praise the time when they had lined up with the Nazis and cooperated with SS divisions against the Russian Bolshewiks.

I so far saw this whole issue pragmatic and sober, and avoided to take sides. But the more I learned about the real nature of the gang taking control in Kiew, the more I feel sympathy and understanding for the Russian reaction. Who knows, if they don't mess it up and play this as disciplined to the end as they have started it, they even may end up with getting my full support. In other words, my views on this crisis are in a tremendous shift currently.

---

In further contrast, this more emotional piece, that exaggerates the understanding for the Russians and Putin himself maybe a bit, but nevertheless holds the mirror to the West'S haughty face, and for better or for worse nevertheless has a point regarding how we demonise Russia always, just because Putin refuses to play according to the rules we want him to play by. It has been my argument since over ten years that Russia is Russia, and does not compare to a Western nation where Western rules maybe function. The determination and hard fist politics maybe are the only thing that keeps the country from falling apart. And if there is one thing that I indeed fear, and certainly more than an autocratic regime in Moscow that nevertheless counts as one of the mildest and most humane in the history of Russia of the past couple of centuries, then it is a Russia destabilizing and loosing control of its crimnal oligarchs and the milizary and the hidden lobbies and elites. Then we could be set for a real big war again. Compare Putin to Crushtchow. Or Stalin. And then you see the difference. At least you should.

http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentar...n-umarmen.html

I despise ex-chancellor Schroeder very much. I despise him absolutely. And I have criticised him often on his one-sided defence of Putin and Russia (and calling Putin an "absolutely clean democrat" certainly was not the fruit of intellectual brilliance by Schroeder, although Putin indeed has been elected in a procedure that formally fullfills the demand of having been "democratic", and Putin having the support of a majority of Russians). But I can understand the reasoning behind staying away from criticising Russia too harshly. Westerners must finally learn that they form only roughly 18% of mankind and that most regions on this planet are different in problems and inherent complexities from our Western places.

We accuse Russia to act by reflexes from the cold war. What I am missing is any awareness by how far we act ourselves by views we have carried over from the cold war. No wonder that Putin has u-turned his stance towards Europe and the US in the past decade - I cannot call him foul for that. I say that since many years.

Merkel complained to Obama that Putin appeared to be disconnected from reality. I think Obama and Merkel are the ones being disconnected form reality. That explains their brilliant efficiency in meeting reality.

I bet in two or three years the West's view of the current crisis will be much more muted and silent than it is now. It will go the same way like it was regarding Shaakashvili and Georgia.

It'S like Oberon indicates. We have pushed the Russians back and pushed them back, and then pushed them back again. Now they push back. Nobody likes to be pushed into a corner and having the shinier parts of his history being notoriously ignored in a bid for demonising him even better.

For us, there is just one thing to do right now: make sure we do not line ourselves up with the highly dubious figures that currently reside in Kiev.

[Skybird]

German, sorry.

http://www.tagesspiegel.de/wirtschaf...g/9564004.html

New government not so clean and sober as claimed in the West: it seems they try to expropriate German company and business owners who invested in the Western Ukraine and run business there.

I move another centimeter onto the Russians' side.

[Flamebatter90]

Better look at the flag the Ukrainian soldiers were carrying at Belbek.

Air Force Sebastopol Air Brigade at #Belbek was Red Air Force 62nd squadron in WWII with six! Heroes of USSR

[MH]

The trouble is, I think we've gone too far down the road to turn back up it now, the chance to bring Russia into a co-operative stance with the EU was around 2000 or so, but we never really took Russia seriously, laughing at the shambles that it had found itself in after the fall of communism, or still treating it as the communist enemy, taking the opportunity of a weakened Russia to push the border between East and West closer to Russias territory.

You give yourself too much credit on this.
Most ex soviet countries and some former states distanced themselves from Russia naturally due to the historical bitterness.
Even today Russia has nothing much to offer besides salvaging what it can by force.
All this is as much internal game as external, restoring the glory of russian empire because life there is not great after all.
How west should react to this?
Should it discourage eastern countries to join or refuse them joining NATO not to humiliate Russia with its eternal wanna be superpower complex?
...and they never quite get there.

[Skybird]

MH,

in the 90s, when I studied at university, I had a girl from Russia amongst my friends, her family had left Russia in the mid-80s. She came from Archangelsk. Time and again she said that she liked many traits in the Russian psyche, and Russian arts and music and literature - and that she hated the grim social reality in Russian cities at that time, and the dirty, broken houses and the smell of pi$$ on the stairs and the shabby looks, and more and more comments like this, and that she would never go back to live there, although she worked as a tourist guide for Western travel groups.

Her brother, however, was different. He agreed with all she said about the miserable life - and nevertheless returned to Russia in 2001 to live there, saying he could not stand the Western life style, and that he missed, as he called it, his real home. Rhodina calling, I assume.

You cannot generalise them all like you, or Neal recently, did: not for all of "them" the West is as attractive as you imagine. In the Ukraine, a significant part of the population, and that includes non-Russian Ukrainians as well!, simply do to want to have something to do with EU. You must not understand them, and you must not expect them to explain it to you. You must just accept that the view on the EU and Russia is not as uniform as you and some others seem to think. And maybe it helps to understand that many Russians love their home country as much as Americans love theirs. Maybe not becasue its poltics, or the economic status. But for reasons that nevertheless are dear enough to them.

It is not helpful to always trample on such sentiments.

The blind Western belief of some people that the shine here in the West is just irresistable to everybody, simply is nothing else but reality-disconnected arrogance. Would I like to live in Russia? Hell, most likely I would admire the landscape but would nevertheless hate to live in Russia. Nor would you like it. Or Neal. But not every man on Earth is like us. Different strokes for different folks. For the EU and Washington, all this is not one bit less about controlling and practicing power over people, than it is for the Kreml. Without obedient peasants - being kings means nothing, you know. And kings them leaders in both Moscow and Western capitals want to be.

[Oberon]

No doubt they distanced themselves from Russia, whilst there are those who indeed have a longing for the days of the Cold War and the Soviet Union in both east and west, there are many more who are happier that they have passed.
What I'm saying is, rather than quietly consulting with Russia on how the post-Cold war break-up should go, thus reaching a settlement that is good for both sides, we operated an open door policy. Which, whilst morally right, has given rise to tension from Russia who has seen the west get closer and closer to their border, and with the major war ability of NATO and the US, this is a threatening thing...and then, to top it all off, the anti-missile defence system plan in Poland. Thankfully Obama tried to dial back the Bush era tensions, but the die had been cast long before then, and here we are.

Of course, having said that, it's a reassuring thing for Eastern European nations to be a part of NATO since they will have no desire to be once again under the Russian sphere of influence, but there is a saying about cornering a wild animal, particularly a bear, and the wisdom of doing such a thing.

[MH]

Skybird.
I never said the view was uniform.
Actually im quite aware of how russians view west or how they view their own country...sometimes with justifiable reasons but very often not, Putin knows how to exploit this.....
Many immigrants here...also from Ukraine.

[Aktungbby]

And when it comes to news, I have also noticed an east/west split in regards to how the news regards the current Ukrainian regime, which is why I've been sampling news from both. You'll notice in this thread that I've been posting stories from both the BBC and Russia Today, which both have their own slants on the story. The reddit live thread which I have also linked to is also quite useful for getting live updates of the situation on the ground, from twitter accounts of reporters in the area, as well as news stations from around the world, from the BBC to Al'Jazerra to RT.

Indeed! And it is that measured, consummate all 'round perspective that we at have come to rely on in these testy discourses. Keep it up! ( I wonder what Putin is watching...besides his personal investment portfolio report? as he pulls off his wretched version of the Rhineland reoccupation without the thin veneer benefit of an Austrian '40's style plebiscite vote even...)