Syria conflict: 'Chemical attacks kill hundreds'

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

What do you think Russia will do in the event of an attack?

You have mid-term elections coming, don't you? You remember that fella called Snowden who is in vacation in Russia? Maybe he has some nice conversations with press just before election day...

[Vince82]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Showing a written claim that one has evidence, and showing the evidence, are two different things.

They seem to have big problem to see that difference. Instead they want their claim taken as the evidence itself.

Unacceptable.

No circus director will make the audience laughing by just claiming that the circus has a clown. The clown has to enter the arena himself and make his jokes, there is no way around that.

Evidence, Mr. Kerry, Mr. Obama. Evidence. Either you show it, or you don't.

Mr. Kerry already did say that himself. He said this is what or findings are and this is what we got. It's no evidence, but draw your own conclussions. Some things are classified, but we will show them to your government officials.

I was reasoning the same way as the Russians did, because it's just not very smart to use chemical weapons. The Assad regime must have thought they could cover it up and maybe they felt they needed to use them in order to get the upper hand in the conflict. And maybe the temptation of using them was too great because of the effectiviness. I don't think Assad has any sort of compassion with the victims. He sees them as muslim terrorists that use chemical weapons aswell.

[Skybird]

"It's no evidence, but draw your own conclusions."

Drawing conclusions on the basis of what? Claims...? The claims need to be proven, then - when they are proven to be correct claims, and thus are shown to be not mere claims but facts - then you can draw conclusions.

I have repeatedly argued in this thread that it makes absolutely no sense that Assad wanted this strike at this time, and should have ordered it. I concluded by that that it may be a staged act by the rebels, because they have a very great interest in as high collateral casualties as possible, for propaganda reasons. Later I added the possibility that a failure in the chain of command took place, that the attack was kind of "accidental" (which is no excuse, to make that clear).

But the US claims they know from where the rockets were started, where they went, and what they did. And leaves it to those claims. That sounds like 2003, what they claimed about the WMDs: "We know they have them and we know where they are."

Sorry, that is no basis for making conclusions, but speculations. That is no evidence. This way it's no way.

[Packlife]

This is nothing like 2003, in 03' they were talking about weapons that nobody knew where they were an they hadn't been used in years. This is not the case an your idea of a "rebel" staged scheme falls flat. I've seen more then 1 doctor on CNN watch those videos an call out all the little things that say yes this person is dying from a chemical weapons attack. An then there's the rows of dead kids, you think your gonna get that many kids to lay that still an not breath for minutes yeah ok. An Assad doesn't care he did it once twice up to 30 times an nobody said anything till the attack on the 21st. Even the inspectors said they were held up for 4 days while Assad's ppl ratcheted up the shelling of the area where the attack's took place. The only ppl who don't believe gas was used is Skybird and Assad.

[kraznyi_oktjabr]

Originally Posted by Packlife

This is nothing like 2003, in 03' they were talking about weapons that nobody knew where they were an they hadn't been used in years. This is not the case an your idea of a "rebel" staged scheme falls flat. I've seen more then 1 doctor on CNN watch those videos an call out all the little things that say yes this person is dying from a chemical weapons attack. An then there's the rows of dead kids, you think your gonna get that many kids to lay that still an not breath for minutes yeah ok. An Assad doesn't care he did it once twice up to 30 times an nobody said anything till the attack on the 21st. Even the inspectors said they were held up for 4 days while Assad's ppl ratcheted up the shelling of the area where the attack's took place. The only ppl who don't believe gas was used is Skybird and Assad.

Just in case you have really been able to miss it but for many many pages Skybird has been talking about scenario of rebels USING those chemical weapons not just STAGING use of them.

[Catfish]

@packlife: sS you were there and saw it ? And maybe even teset this substance ?

I have to say, Mr Kerry telling me that 'certain substances' have been used, does not convince me.

He should at least had held up some test tube with some green slime in it, you know like Powell did, before the UN. And Mr Cheney in the background, somewhere,
THAT would have convinced me, since i am still dumb as a brick

[Ducimus]

Originally Posted by Feuer Frei!

I don't want to get into a slanging match with you.

That's fine. It's clearly obvious you know everything. Nothing anyone could say would make any difference.

[Vince82]

The only ppl who don't believe gas was used is Skybird and Assad.

You forget about President Putin according to him it's utter nonsense to suggest Assad did it. He's probably just trying to be funny....

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Packlife

. The only ppl who don't believe gas was used is Skybird and Assad.

False claim by you, as proven by repeated comments of mine that it probably were chemical weapons indeed. Why and By whom are the questions remaining.

Stick to the facts, or stay out.

What I say is the attack and its timing make absolutely no sense from Assad's POV, but that rebels have a high interest in big collateral damages reported in the world press. And that raises questions.

And to make it completely clear to you what I think: I rate every of these three scenarios

- Assad ordered it
- breakdown in chain of command, a communication error or internal power struggle led to it
- the rebels did it

an equal probability of 30 %, and give a remaining probability of not more than 10 % for the possibility that the attack was not chemical at all.

The only thing that is 100% certain is that an event took place, whatever it might have been and whomever may be responsible for it.

[Feuer Frei!]

Originally Posted by Ducimus

That's fine. It's clearly obvious you know everything. Nothing anyone could say would make any difference.

Listen, if you wanna defend your little buddy and start openly attacking me then do it in pm.

I suggest you have a serious think about why you jumped in, what you wrote and why you make some pretty dumb accusations.

Putting words in my mouth, assuming you know what i think or why i posted something when it had absolutely nothing to do with you is rich.
Doing it in this thread is even richer.
PM me otherwise let your buddy defend himself, with facts.
Not assumptions and opinions based on bloggers.

[Skybird]

A good piece from the NYT. Advice worth to be considered.

Experts fear US plan to strike Syria overlooks risks:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/08/31...?from=homepage

Its a 'lil complex for added excitement, isn't it…

[Skybird]

And this from the WP

http://m.washingtonpost.com/world/na...fd5_story.html

While unusually detailed, the assessment does not include photographs, recordings or other hard evidence to support its claims. Nor does it offer proof to back up the administration’s assertion that top-ranking Syrian officials — possibly including President Bashar al-Assad — were complicit in the attack.

[u crank]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Experts fear US plan to strike Syria overlooks risks:
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2013/08/31...?from=homepage

Ever walk down the side walk and step on something you wished you hadn't stepped on?

That would leave the United States to choose between a loss of credibility and a more expansive — and unpopular — conflict, they said. “So he continues on in defiance — maybe he even launches another chemical attack to put a stick in our eye — and then what?” Mr. Crocker said. “Because once you start down this road, it’s pretty hard to get off it and maintain political credibility.”

The rabbit hole awaits.

[Skybird]

And German FAZ reports (refering to Jane's Defence Weekly) that Moscow has not frozen but cancelled the sale of 12 Mig29, 6 S300 SAM systems, and 36 Yak130 jet trainers.

[TLAM Strike]

The Assault ship San Antonio just joined the five destroyers in the Med, while the Russians have sent two new warships and are going to send Admiral Kuznetsov to the Med.

US Forces:
USS Barry
USS Gravely
USS Mahan
USS Ramage
USS Stout
USS San Antonio (26th MEU(-))

NATO:
French Frigate Chevalier Paul

Russian Forces:
Slava cruiser Moscova
Udaloy destroyer Marshal Shaposhnikov
Amur Class Repair Ship PM-138 (off Cyprus, evacuated Russian personel from base in Tartous)
+ about 8 others (might be 1 Udaloy, 1 Kashtin, 1-2 Neustrashimyy, 5 anphibs) which were already in the med on exercises in the past weeks and months.

Syrian Naval Forces:
Nothing of interest but they do have 72 P-800 Yakhont ASMs and ~25 C-802 ASMs,

(Fred Thompson meme on standby)