Graf Zeppelin wreck found!

Drebbel, I respectfully have to disagree. I have over the years been involved in several "Was the US Civil War about slavery or not?" arguments. I of course don't want to go into that here, but one of the main "not" arguments was always "Ninety-nine percent of the Union soldiers signed up for reasons other than to 'free the slaves', and likewise virtually no Southern boys signed up for the purpose of keeping the slaves where they were". The truth is, almost nobody signs up to protect a cause. I went to Viet Nam, but later came to agree with those who thought that war was wrong. Today, a lot of people think that US involvement in Iraq is wrong, many all the way to thinking President Bush is downright evil. Are soldiers who volunteer for service there supporting evil? I don't think so.

My bottom line is this: some Germans signed up with the light of Hitler's cause in there eyes, some signed up because they were afraid not to, but most signed up because their country was at war. Maybe they were misled, maybe they were blinded by propaganda, maybe we can argue about officers (especially ranking ones), but by and large the average German boy joined up because he felt Germany needed him.

[Drebbel]

but by and large the average German boy joined up because he felt Germany needed him.

But he was wrong, maybe ignorant, and probably already made many wrong choices in the decade before WWII started.

But ignorance can never be an excuse !

[SeaWolf IV]

Wow, way to pull the thread off topic.

Originally Posted by Drebbel

But he was wrong, maybe ignorant, and probably already made many wrong choices in the decade before WWII started.

But ignorance can never be an excuse !

Youre thinking about this too easy... but it wasnt so easy like this. there was no chance to say "hey, i think hitler is bad, i wont fight for him" as a 20 years old boy... or younger, or older... im sure you know that, so why talking about ignorance? they didnt had a chance...

if you say no you die or get into the worst "prison" you can imagine... would you say no?

[Drebbel]

if you say no you die or get into the worst "prison" you can imagine... would you say no?

I hope I would say NO in the late 1920s. If I would not say no I would have silently agreed, and therefore partially responsible/accountable, for the NAZI politics that eventually led to WWII.

My family has been killed for saying NO. But of course that does not mean I will have the same courage, one only knows that when one is actually in that situation.

Generally it comes to this: My opnion is simply that all Germans where to blaim for what happend. Not just the NAZIs. Some did it, and some just let it happen, imo all are to blaim.

[slow_n_ez]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

..... I have over the years been involved in several "Was the US Civil War about slavery or not?" arguments.....

Actually no ..... and my next comment will kinda sum up the argument here ....

United we stand , Divided we fall ...........

Pretty much a basis that all counties follow ....... imo

[torpcatcher]

After WWI Germany were destroyed economically and financially. Hitler used the great depression to his advantage, and gained control over the country. Since people were out of work and starving Hitler’s solutions to the problems that Germany faced at that time were rather accepted enthusiastically by the people. Mass weapon production and industrialization for military purposes pulled the country out of the hole.

And when it comes to people serving in the military force…. Well they all were fanatics at some point or the other. After the war they used the excuse “I did not have the choice” over admitting that they were sharing Hitler’s views.

I strongly suggest Subsim fans to read “Steel Boats, Iron Hearts” this book tell a story of a sailor who served on U – 505. In one of the chapters he admits that he joined navy because of the ideology that he strongly believed in. He said that it would be a lie for him not to admit that.

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Generally it comes to this: My opnion is simply that all Germans where to blaim for what happend. Not just the NAZIs. Some did it, and some just let it happen, imo all are to blaim.

But you are talking about ignorance?
I wont try to change your mind, thats not my problem... my last word to this OT discussion...

[U-104]

Originally Posted by SeaWolf IV

Wow, way to pull the thread off topic.

yep

Originally Posted by slow_n_ez

Actually no ..... and my next comment will kinda sum up the argument here ....

United we stand , Divided we fall ...........

Pretty much a basis that all counties follow ....... imo

A different argument for a different thread, which was why I only used it as a side-note.

And I find your summation simplistic at the very best.

[Dowly]

Originally Posted by Drebbel

Generally it comes to this: My opnion is simply that all Germans where to blaim for what happend. Not just the NAZIs. Some did it, and some just let it happen, imo all are to blaim.

So, everyone living in America is to be blamed, when one US soldier kills a civilian in Iraq?

End of OT from me.

[Drebbel]

Originally Posted by Dowly

So, everyone living in America is to be blamed, when one US soldier kills a civilian in Iraq?

Yes, unless you protested against the war or the government. If you kept your mouth shut about the war and just let it happen then it is your reponsibility too. And if you where in favor of the war it is clear you are responsible.

Too often in history disasters happen because people think they are no responsible/accountable for what their government/country does. After it happens they simply point to the fellow citizans.

I truely cant believe the crap going on here.

(Most of the below referes to the era of WWII)
In war time a country usualy conscripts - your right to object has just been taken away. If you do your Shot or at best thrown in prison. Let me tell you about Military prisons, you have NO RIGHTS.
So there you are now, on the battle field, the guy at the other end of the 2way rifle range is trying to kill you, you however object to being in the war. Do you think for 1 second that he (your foe) gives a flying TOSS if you object to the war, HELL NO. So where does that leave you, either you fight to stay alive or you can volanteer to become target practise, your choice.

Now pray tell what do you think the odds are that you will chose target practise!

See its all about a lil thing call Military Law. Its not like Civi Law. Most Military Laws are stacked in the counties favour, not the soldier and 1's they conscript you, guess what, Mil Law applies, not civil. So don't give me this BS about you can object and not fight and not suffer for it, because you didnt have that choice. You served or you died or at best imprisoned (persoanly back then being shot would have been better than going to prison). If you try to desert you are shot, if you FIGHT, you just may, just may live to tell about it.

This of course dose not apply to all, some join of their own free will. But even so the reasons they chose may or may NOT have had anything to do with political reasons. It can be for love of country, which has no political connection. It could be a fear of invasion or a fear of loved 1's being killed. In other words the reason a man may chose to go to war can have NOTHING to do with political beliefs. So yes while some did join for reasons that are dispicable other may have had no choice or reasons other than just plain black and white. There is a lot of grey out there and its not just the fog of war.

[Grom]

Originally Posted by Nippelspanner

Whoa!

But i hate this: "Sonar identifiziert Nazi-Flugzeugträger"
(Sonar identifies Nazi-Aircraftcarrier)

Calling German Kriegsmarine Ships "Nazi-Ships" makes me so damn angry!

Cant You be just happy because this mighty vessel have been found ? What is the matter how jurnalist or whoever it was called Nazi Ship or German Ship ? It is not important in this history. Important is that ship have been found. Why do You make kind of political statement because of missspell or missunderstand or however You like to call this small misstake. I have noticed this as very good news. One secret less in human history.

Originally Posted by Grom

Cant You be just happy because this mighty vessel have been found ? What is the matter how jurnalist or whoever it was called Nazi Ship or German Ship ? It is not important in this history. Important is that ship have been found. Why do You make kind of political statement because of missspell or missunderstand or however You like to call this small misstake. I have noticed this as very good news. One secret less in human history.

You can find the reason inside this thread... By the way, good job to keep this dead discussion alive Grom...