All seeing Helos

[Deathblow]

Originally Posted by drEaPer

Aaaaanyway... What about the helo issue?

Your the one that steered the discussion off track with your original out the blue comments. No one even mentioned claims of realism until you brought it up. Hijacked your own thread you did.

You should read what people write.

[drEaPer]

No, deatblow... LW offered a fix via his mod which is irrelevant, since the issue still remains with stock DW.
What this got to do with reading what ppl write is beyond my perception. If 2 topics within on thread are too much to handle for you, ok, then Im sorry

Kazuaki, claiming to be a professional agency is != claiming to put in the the real world values (since this is an MP experience, and to me, being a gamer, gameplay is more important than realism)

Originally Posted by Deathblow

Your the one that steered the discussion off track with your original out the blue comments. No one even mentioned claims of realism until you brought it up. Hijacked your own thread you did.

LW used the chance to advertise his mod, which is fine, but which lead to me critizsing it. Additonally I wrote:

Originally Posted by dreaper

Ok sorry, I dont wanan discuss LWAMI here, this thread is abut AI helo making trouble in MP on player controlled FFG (You got me in your icq list, if you wanna, just send me a msg there).
Your explanation makes sense. What can be done to avoid it?

Which after all has only been said cause LW makes claims he cant prove. I respect his work, I already said that, heck I even playtested it in the first versions and helped with bug reporting.
Here, I just wrote down reasons why there are players who dont wanna play with it which was initiated by LW advertising his mod as a fix So you should be more careful with accusing "out of the blue".


Discussing this topic with you guys is like talkling to politicians Much talk, no prove.
But discussing this topic in the lions cave is pretty much senseless anyway, and since I am philosophically educated, I know when to stop. So I do here.

cheers and have a good day

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by drEaPer

No, deatblow... LW offered a fix via his mod which is irrelevant, since the issue still remains with stock DW.
What this got to do with reading what ppl write is beyond my perception. If 2 topics within on thread are too much to handle for you, ok, then Im sorry

It is you that's not grasping the obvious. Since the problem is doctrinal and database related, you can't fix it without changing the DBs and doctrines. Which means:
1) You can continue to suffer.
2) You can use LWAMI - since you claim you don't have the first clue whether the numbers are realistic anyway, why not use it? It can't hurt.
3) You can try and parse the LWAMI stuff yourself looking for the fix only, or try and reverse-engineer what was done without looking at LWAMI's doctrinal codes. Unfortunately, you haven't been on a real SH-60R before and part of the problem is with the DB. According to you, no one should change the DB unless he happened to have experience on the real vehicle. So you can't change the DB. So you have to continue to suffer (go to 1).

Kazuaki, claiming to be a professional agency is != claiming to put in the the real world values (since this is an MP experience, and to me, being a gamer, gameplay is more important than realism)

Nor does "realism" necessarily mean "100% stick to it in every respect" and all that. That's an unrealistic expectation especially in a game model that's not 100% realistic, forcing unrealistic workarounds to achieve more realistic overall results.

A professional agency, however, should be expected to do more than just try and BS in the nether regions of the DB. One has to look at the crap (no offense, Sonalyst, but one must be honest when the AA-11 has a lower effectiveness than a PL-2) they put in for the missiles to believe it. You can come up with better values by sticking your nose in Wikipedia for 2 hours looking up weapons pages.

[Molon Labe]

I nominate the above for the "subsim post of the week" award. :rotfl:

[LuftWolf]

You can come up with better values by sticking your nose in Wikipedia for 2 hours looking up weapons pages.

More like dozens of hours... at least that's what it seems like, checking each and every thing about each object.

I'm sure Sonalysts could have found some guy that got fired by Janes, paid him $5,000 and given him a few days... but they didn't, so we'll just do it for free.

Then when they release their next game, rather than using our work, they'll just take their same old crappy stock Fleet Command database, dust it off, and plug it in for us to fix again.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by LuftWolf

More like dozens of hours... at least that's what it seems like, checking each and every thing about each object.

There aren't that many missile entries. Sure. It'd take "dozens of hours" to really do the job correctly. But just to do better than the hash that's the current situation shouldn't take that long.

[LuftWolf]

I mean dozens if you consider every single object in the database that is "not as close as it ought to be if we are really going to get serious about fixing this beotch".

[Palindromeria]

if you disagree with some portion of the mod this strongly

you can

a) not use it
b) make your own.
c) swim in the Gowanus

unless LW has telekinetic powers im unaware of,

its your choice.
----------

hmmm wasnt this a thread about helos ? oh never mind ...

[Deadeye313]

AS for the helos. I like that they can find and lock targets. I find that this is one of only 2 advantages the FFG has against subs.

Also, I don't see the helos knowing where a sub is as unusual. follow my logic: A computer will always be faster than a human, that's a given. Now, if you place a dicass in the water with the helo and only moments after it goes active, the helo has a sub, think of it not as an all seeing helo, think of it as just classifying the sub quicker than a human ever could.

subs have one huge advantage over the FFG. they can go really slow and quiet and all they need to do to see the FFG is go to periscope depth and pop the periscope. The FFG can only listen or give away his position using the active sonar.

However, the FFG has only one thing to counter subs that can simply pop the periscope. The Helo that can prosecute targets almost single handidly.

Think of the helos seeing the enemy subs as simply a really really fast human. If you have the enemy sub on towed array, and/or have a tma, likely the helo knows too and will home in and find that sub. It won't look like what a person is doing, but it's roughly the same thing...just faster.

And if sub drivers get scared, they should be. The FFG was created to kill subs with helicopters. You should, by all means, not get picked up on the FFG's sensors.

The other great thing the FFG has is a towed array that tells you it has a contact, no matter how thin the broadband signature is. That little chart at the top left is incaluable.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki II]

Originally Posted by Deadeye313

Also, I don't see the helos knowing where a sub is as unusual. follow my logic: A computer will always be faster than a human, that's a given. Now, if you place a dicass in the water with the helo and only moments after it goes active, the helo has a sub, think of it not as an all seeing helo, think of it as just classifying the sub quicker than a human ever could.

Not really:
1) Gamewise, your description is equivalent to a FPS game where you keep getting shot to pieces by the AI from a simulated range of 400m, when it is armed with a pistol. When you complain, they explain it to you by saying a computer always has better aim than a human, and the AI used his pistol as an artillery piece at a 20 degree superelevation to get you at range...
2) Apparently, his helo just launched. The helo isn't just "fast" - it is seeing at ranges it shouldn't be able to see.
3) For the TA part, I entirely agree. Perhaps in the future, they will upgrade the towed array displays on the subs, which supposedly look a lot more like the FFGs than the forms they look like now...

[LuftWolf]

The biggest problem is that once helos and aircraft detect a contact, they NEVER stop updating the contact, even if they are 100 miles away and all their sensors are off.

Of course, there are workarounds in the doctrines, but the stock doctrines have no such features.