Spain goes bananas!!!

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Iceman

ummm....I love them damn dirty apes....lmao.... :rotfl:

Hmmm, is that a male or a female (ape), Iceman?

If it's a male ape, I find it a dirty picture...
Oops!
:rotfl:

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Not the Dutch attitude. That was one of promoting multi-culturalism and condoning Medieval behaviour as equal to our Western values...

I conceive Islam as weaker, even desperate in certain aspects...

Hirsi Ali, The Hunted.

You are living in a little Dutch bubble, Abraham.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Hirsi Ali, The Hunted.

You are living in a little Dutch bubble, Abraham.

I doubt it, but if so, I'm sure I know my bubble pretty well.

The reference link to Hirshi Ali - whom I admire for her courage but less for her tact - is completely missing the point, and it's title: "Hirsi Ali, The Hunted" better fits a Hollywood movie than a serious discussion of a court decision. This case was not against Hirshi Ali, but against the Government, who has provided her with a secure living place, which resulted in - amougst other things - a serious drop in the value of the real estate of her neighbours. The Court wants the Government to come up with a different solution. The Minister of Justice (not Hirshi Ali!) is considering an appeal. All this is probably a matter of money between the appartment owners and the Government

As a general advise: I would be very reluctant to second guess court decisions that I haven't read, in court cases that I don't know, in countries where I don't live...
Well, that's just me, being a lawyer.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

As a general advise: I would be very reluctant to second guess court decisions that I haven't read, in court cases that I don't know, in countries where I don't live...
Well, that's just me, being a lawyer.

Had you followed the link to the source blog of the full article and looked up who the author is, you would find:

Pieter Dorsman studied law and obtained a Master’s degree in Economic and Social History at the Erasmus Universiteit in Rotterdam, The Netherlands.

And it's not the court's decision that is so paramount as is the fact that a situation exists - for quite some time already - that is worsening step by step and there will be more and more victims as Islamic influences continue to dictate what is and isn't safe to say, believe, write or draw.

[Hitman]

Returning to the initial topic: If one of the main concerns of our current government is the apes, go figure how they manage the rest of politics :hmm: And the worst thing is that there is no alternative...the other major party is equally bad . God, how I hate politicians....

Why do we always have to do such stupid things? I sometimes feel really ashamed of being spaniard

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Had you followed the link to the source blog of the full article and looked up who the author is, you would find:

Pieter Dorsman studied law and obtained a Master’s degree in Economic and Social History at the Erasmus Universiteit in Rotterdam, The Netherlands.


And it's not the court's decision that is so paramount as is the fact that a situation exists - for quite some time already - that is worsening step by step and there will be more and more victims as Islamic influences continue to dictate what is and isn't safe to say, believe, write or draw.

Touché TAV!

Still, the case is about the Government giving protection and Hirshi Ali's neighbours suffering nasty consequences.
Everybody has the right to bring a case to court, even the neighbours of Hirshi Ali.

[Abraham]

Since this subject is discussed again by Mapuc on another thread, I would like to add some info that might lead to a better understanding of the situation around the protection of Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirshi Ali.

Holland has until recently been a very transparant and open society. Until the murder of Pim Fortuyn (May 6th, 2002) the Prime Minister and several of his collegue Cabinet members used to bike from their appartments in The Hague to their ministries. Personal protection was - almost - non-existent. The murder of Fortuyn changed all this for politicians, the murder of Theo van Gogh did the same for the two members of Parliament Geert Wilders and Ayaan Hirshi Ali, who were threatened by Muslim extremists. This threat was taken so serious and our country so ill-prepared for such a situation that no "safe houses" existed from where they could continue their parliamentary duties in safety. They were housed in military complexes in Amsterdam and Zeist for months. In the meantime the Government bought some appartments for them and their security detail. Since personal protection works with circles or "bubbles" of ever thightly security, I can imagine that this protection has a severe impact on the direct neighbours.

By the way: Lately opinion makers, like some writers and journalists and party leaders in Parliament also get extra personal protection. We are slowly catching up with reality - but we miss the informality which was a characteristic of Dutch politics...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Since personal protection works with circles or "bubbles" of ever thightly security, I can imagine that this protection has a severe impact on the direct neighbours.

You are stating the obvious.

But you just now did a better job than the Peatalk blog in explaining what's really wrong here.

Holland has become frightened. It started with the threats to this or that politician or writer for what they say and believe. It won't stop there.

It will stop here. And he's not the silly old fool you think he is.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

You are stating the obvious.

But you just now did a better job than the Peatalk blog in explaining what's really wrong here.

Holland has become frightened. It started with the threats to this or that politician or writer for what they say and believe. It won't stop there.

It will stop here. And he's not the silly old fool you think he is.

I am sincerely convinced that most "muslims" in Holland would resent if not resist an Islam supremacy in Europe, at least in The Netherlands. They realise that Europe would go down the drain economically within a generation and where would they go then?
The situation in Holland is that no allochtone immigrant from any Muslim counrty wants to go back (it has been tried by the government with subsidies). They just want to live a better life here and become part of our society.
True, there is a substantial minority that doesn't adapt well, but mind you, it is a big step from a Medieval tribal desert society into Western Europe. The Dutch government is partly to blame because we never put any preconditions on participating in (and profiting from) our society. This minority certainly causes a (social) problem because they are too much traditionalists and conservatives to fit in our society.
Then there are the young umemployed muslims who behave asocial and commit petty crimes. This is partly an age problem and partly a social problem.
Then there is a small group of religious fundamentalists olf which an even smaller minority might turn to extremism. These cause a security problem -which seems to be pretty well under control at the moment.

So while a substantial number of muslims causes problems we are certainly talking about a minority. Furthermore, while most of these problems are somehow related to their religion (Islam), the problems themselves are diverse.

When we are talking about the security problem in connection to terrorism or the 'Jihad' against Western values, we're actually talking about quite a small group, which might spread destruction, but is too weak to bring changes to a society.

I certainly don't underestimate the danger of muslim terrorism, but a despise the generalisations of all 'muslims' as a solid bloc of dangerous creatures as is so often suggested in this forum.
Some are, the great majority is not.


Through black shades, even a Polar Bear will look like a Grissly.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Abraham

I am sincerely convinced that most "muslims" in Holland would resent if not resist an Islam supremacy in Europe, at least in The Netherlands. They realise that Europe would go down the drain economically within a generation and where would they go then?

Actually, the argument of pro-Islamic lobyists in politics and economics are especially pointing at this: that Europe cannot survive economically if we DO NOT import Islam. That's why our so-called elites are propagating that "we must need to want Islam". One chooses this path, because that we must chnage things is obvious, but one does want to adress problems in a way so that we must not change our exessive life-styles - provinding it is a very interest-heavy business for certain economical circles who want to stick to it even at the cost of having Islam.

another reason of course is the interest of certain persons to bypass democracy - by having Islam present and pushing society towards a more totalitarian mindset, and the mental acceptance of it. these anti-democrats are hindered in their ambitions to have an obedient people to play with. These are the people that are the bone of the process that turns a democracy sooner or later into oligarchy - becasue they think they know it all so much better and thus should not be hindred by votes of the majority opinion.

And lastly the church: there are circles that want to have back the powerful church, and the Christian "Gottesstaat". They think if they embrace Islam and let it prepare the road for that, later the church could get rid of this ally, and have the harvest of a more obedient public and authority-listening people for itself. Problem is they do not understand that they are very ill-equipped to get rid of Islam again once it has becomne strong enough to influence the society into that direction far enough. Instead it will be the church being overturned. They overestimate themselves, and that chruches are empty, while mosques pop up everywhere like mushrroms in autumn doesn't tell them anything. Idiots.

I could also rasie a consiracy theory, that there is a hidden organization or leader that is leading europe's people into a conflict-heavy situation that is testing their sense of survival and will force them to go develoepe lost strengths and virtues again if they want to survive this "test". That way preparing for a rennaissance of the values and philosophical attitude of the enligthenment. - but how could one assume there is someone in europe clever enough to successfully play such a dangerous game Maybe I have red too much Frank Herbert (Dune).

"So while a substantial number of muslims causes problems we are certainly talking about a minority."

Really? A majority may not do deeds that are defined as active terrorism or active missionizing - but their simple presence is helping to spread Islam and thus already is a risk. And that is a problem indeed. not too mention that these people mostly do nothing to actively fight against what people like your consider to be the fundamental or extremist tradition of Islam (you know I say that historically such a difference does not exist and that the term "fundamentalism" is a Western folly, deriving from the times of violant opposition to European imperialism in northwestern Africa).

Take a guy like Konovalov, for example. I like him, but not what he claims to represent. He certainly does not help to overturn Western constitutions, or will not commit crimes, or propagating sharia. He has been raised in Western traditions, and his thinking patterns reflect Western way of thinking. But he thinks of himself of being a Muslim, for whatever a reason. By that he strengthens that faction by a number of one. The demand to raise the acceptance towards Islam, and accept it's demands (that are hidden behind the freedom of religion, although that automatically imply massive political demands, since Islam does not make a differernce between the two), is a little bit more powerful, has a slighty bigger argument of numbers, due to his presence here. It's a dilemma.

I also referred to the example that has repated itself in history time and again and that you constantly ignore: that "moderate" Muslim communities, during an introduction phase where Islam is being sown out in a new cultural environment, tend to be calm and harmless, but that Islam unavoidably tends to expand and grow, and when a "critical mass", a certain number level has been reached, the true, you would say: the "extremist" Islam tends to raise in proportion, and then moderate Islam tends to submit under this process. I have written about that longer time ago, and in that essays, too. You cannot name a single muslim country today where they have been successful in getting true Islam under control - sometimes it withdraw for a while, like in Turkey, or it slept in the hidden, like in the former Soviet provinces, but nowhere it had been overcome - it always has a comeback sooner or later, everywhere. Sooner or later even a moderate community starts to press for Islam becoming the dominant paradigm. It's an inner self-dynamic Islam cannot escape. People like you constantly ignore this, and that is suicidal. You think you are so superior and strong that you can tame these processes. But as I say time and again: YOU CANNOT TAME ISLAM .

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by Abraham

I am sincerely convinced that most "muslims" in Holland would resent if not resist an Islam supremacy in Europe, at least in The Netherlands. They realise that Europe would go down the drain economically within a generation and where would they go then?

Please clarify: if they realise that Islam has this negative effect, why do they still want to be muslims?

[Skybird]

Good one!

[Abraham]

@ Wim Libaers:
Why is Holland (still!) called 'Calvinistic' although there was never a majority of Calvinists and now there is only a small minority of Calvinists?
Answer: even if you lose your faith, you will still be influenced by the cultural tangent of it for more than one generation. And being a "muslim" is even more a way of life than a 'living' faith.
Give'm a few generations, please...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

Give'm a few generations, please...

Can you linkl me to a statistical trends analysis that shows whether Muslims in Europe have become more or less committed to Islam or identified with it over the past 2 decades?

[Skybird]

Abraham,

"Few generations?" Shouldn't have several centuries already been enough, like we had in Europe? That Islam has not changed and developed since one and a half millenium, close to; that it's message is that it is the climax and fullfilment and thus the end of all emerging history and civilization, and that it cannot get anything better than Islam was, is and always will be, and that developement and change almost is forbidden, any traditions and sciences aiming at that are penalized, that the minds that emerged over the centuries that showed real creativity and genius were killed or ended in prison cells, and it has no tradition that is able to really challenge the interpretation of the Sunni orthodoxy, since a thiusand years - all this doesn't tell you anything? What kind of missing sense of realism are you suffering from? "Europe is so great, what they can'T do themselves, we can do for them in just a few generations, by our simple and formidable self-example?" Man, you are really dangerous.

Few generations... how many more...??? Give them as much time as you want: they will not use it to adopt to European traditions, but to change Europe to become like themselves. That is Islam, it's essence, core and inner nature. It has a long history that accumulated the experience how to make sure that one does not change. It is a professional in not chnaging. Whatever you are talking about - it is not Islam. You said some days ago we "were on the same side". That is not true. you are actively defending the Islamization of Europe, and declare the patience to let it happen a virtue. On the same side? We couldn't be more apart.

Peace in Islam: overcoming everything that is not Islam, by that wiping out all opposition so that no more challenges and thus conflicts could arise, becasue there is nothing left that is not Islam - that is the concept of peace in Islam, and only that. You must realize that this is the mindset of an unscrupelous godfather who abused supernatural arguments to justify his own deeds and greedy cravings for more and more. It is the superstitious self-justification of a desert bandit and gangster, who accepted only one law: his own, and Islam, better: Quran, being his own law and creation reflects this. Let the Medellin cartell have free trade with Europe, and in some generations it will adopt to the constitutions and legal codes of European history, or what...???

Your demands are irresponsible.


AL,

if you scan German medias you will find regular news and statistics indicating or clearly showing that with the young Generations of Albanians and Turks we have, the trends you are asking about do not exist, but quite the opposite: a growing nationalism amongst young Turks (in favour of a "Great Turkey", not Germany), and a radicalisation in following Islam'S rules. there are those that stick to German habits and rules, that is true, and these are not the problem. but I cannot see them to be a majoirty, or a growing faction. they are a minority, I think, and I don't see them to become the model for the integrated Europeanized Muslim of the feature. The cutting back of the social welfare state also will reduce the material benefits for m,uslim emigrants, making it more difficult for them after arrival. So, that attractor to become europeanized and assimilated in the hosting nation is loosing in importance, too.

But I know that your question was rethorical only. As much as we disagree on many things, concerning the chances of Europe to escape Islamization we are of probably same opinions. It's just that it soemtimes kills my nerves to talk against human walls that without need have decided to stop thinking, mistaking their hopes for a better future with the realistic perception of the past and the present. So many people let Europe down - and claim the best of intentions for doing so, and always have well-meaning excuses so that you cannot attack them, and their irrational follies are bypassing historical or present reality.