Iraqi WMDs revisited

[Abraham]

@ The Avon Lady:
I can't display your link. Something wrong?
:hmm:

Originally Posted by scandium

If Saddam had WMD when the US invaded, why didn't he use them? And its been, what, 3 years since the invasion of Iraq? If these WMD existed and were given to terrorirsts as you seem to suggest, why haven't they been used in the last 3 years?

Having a Weapon of Mass Destruction does not equal using a Weapon of Mass Destruction.
They have to be hidden, what reduces their deployability and if you don't have a well thought-out and proven chai of command & control your orders might not even be carried out!

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Abraham

@ The Avon Lady:
I can't display your link. Something wrong?

Link is correct. Server seems to be down. Try again later.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

- Smuggled out to Syria? See this recent opinion piece. I have no idea how valid the claims made are.

- The US and Bush, as you know, look like the greatest of fools.

- These weapons or materials were not yet in a deployable state.

- They're sitting under the coalition's noses and those that want to get to them cannot due to location or equipment required to move them.

I'm not claiming anything here as fact. I'm just pointing out that there are rational answers to your question.

so, in other words, you don't know...

and therefore, all of your opinion, all of your viewpoint, of which you so vociferously put forth, all of it is based on rumor, propaganda, and heresay... and none of it is based on fact...

yet you continue to wave your finger of guilt, and the truth of the matter becomes secondary, and eventually becomes meaningless... to the point where you never even stop and look for the truth any more... only your self righteous agenda is important to you...

and that is central to the problem... all of your [so called] 'rational answers' seem to ignore the most rational of all...

that they may have never been there at all in the first place


--Mike

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

so, in other words, you don't know...

and therefore, all of your opinion, all of your viewpoint, of which you so vociferously put forth, all of it is based on rumor, propaganda, and heresay... and none of it is based on fact...

yet you continue to wave your finger of guilt, and the truth of the matter becomes secondary, and eventually becomes meaningless... to the point where you never even stop and look for the truth any more... only your self righteous agenda is important to you...

and that is central to the problem... all of your [so called] 'rational answers' seem to ignore the most rational of all...

that they may have never been there at all in the first place


--Mike

Well actually they were there in the first place.
They were there when Kurds were gassed by Saddam.
They were there when Iranian soldiers were gassed in the Iraq-Iran war.
They were there when Iraqi Scud's were fired at Israel - although they were not used (I have a gut feeling I know why).
They were there during the First Gulf War - although they were not used (I have a gut feeling I know why).
They were there when many were found and destroyed after the First Gulf War.
And it turned out that there was a widespread WMD-program on it's way after the First Gulf War.

And yes, with hindsight it seems that they are not there anymore - although only a small part of all the confiscated Iraqi documentation on the subject is translated yet.

History will eventually teach us how far the WMDs were develloped or ready or non-existant.
History also teaches us to err preferrably on the safe side...

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

so, in other words, you don't know...

Not "in other words". Read what I said. You seem incapabale of grasping what people state in their posts - even after they repeat themselves for you.

and therefore, all of your opinion, all of your viewpoint, of which you so vociferously put forth, all of it is based on rumor, propaganda, and heresay... and none of it is based on fact...

Read Scandium's question or at least the way he posed it. I answered appropriatly. Again you don't read.

yet you continue to wave your finger of guilt, and the truth of the matter becomes secondary, and eventually becomes meaningless... to the point where you never even stop and look for the truth any more... only your self righteous agenda is important to you...

Rabid dog! Call the city pound!

and that is central to the problem... all of your [so called] 'rational answers' seem to ignore the most rational of all...

that they may have never been there at all in the first place

Abraham just answered you very rationally.

So you can stop foaming at the mouth now.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

@ Abraham...

Well actually they were there in the first place.
They were there when Kurds were gassed by Saddam.
They were there when Iranian soldiers were gassed in the Iraq-Iran war.
They were there when Iraqi Scud's were fired at Israel - although they were not used (I have a gut feeling I know why).
They were there during the First Gulf War - although they were not used (I have a gut feeling I know why).
They were there when many were found and destroyed after the First Gulf War.
And it turned out that there was a widespread WMD-program on it's way after the First Gulf War.

show me a picture of one of them... just one... any one... that was captured in this war...

show me a picture of one half of one...

one quarter of one...

you can't... facts are facts... gut feelings are gut feelings... rumor and propaganda are rumor and propaganda...

@ Avon Lady...

read above what i just said to Abraham... s l o w l y...

[quote]

Rabid dog! Call the city pound!
Quote:
and that is central to the problem... all of your [so called] 'rational answers' seem to ignore the most rational of all...

that they may have never been there at all in the first place


Abraham just answered you very rationally.

So you can stop foaming at the mouth now.

i think you go to far this time AL... i won't lower myself to the level of returning the name calling... and it is a direct violation of the fiorum rules...

lets see what Abraham does on this instance...


--Mike

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

@ Abraham...

show me a picture of one of them... just one... any one... that was captured in this war...

show me a picture of one half of one...

one quarter of one...

you can't... facts are facts... gut feelings are gut feelings... rumor and propaganda are rumor and propaganda...

@ Avon Lady...

read above what i just said to Abraham... s l o w l y...

Please contact Kofi Anan for the pics.

Now ain't this confusing! We thought they were there, but they weren't, and now we find out someone must have moved them. The weapons that weren't there, that is. :hmm:

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

@ Abraham...

show me a picture of one of them... just one... any one... that was captured in this war...

show me a picture of one half of one...

one quarter of one...

Real funny to ask me that question (3 times) after leaving out this part of my own quote;

Originally Posted by Abraham

History will eventually teach us how far the WMDs were develloped or ready or non-existant.
History also teaches us to err preferrably on the safe side...

But then, half-quotes makes it so much easier to reach conclusions like:

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

you can't... facts are facts... gut feelings are gut feelings... rumor and propaganda are rumor and propaganda...

Originally Posted by Mike'Red October' Hense

@ Avon Lady...

read above what i just said to Abraham... s l o w l y...

i think you go to far this time AL... i won't lower myself to the level of returning the name calling... and it is a direct violation of the fiorum rules...

lets see what Abraham does on this instance...

--Mike

I find it a bit childish of you to complain about a lack of moderation in this case and mingle another discussion on another thread with this one.
But if you really need a moderator, I suggest you send a P.M. (it's the little button down left) to one of the other moderators of this forum. That's the most discreet and most often used way to get a moderator going.
As you might or might not have noticed, I do not moderate a subject in discussions I take part in and I do not take part in discussions when I moderate a subject.
I'm strict on that, because could cloud my objectivety.
So on this thread, I'm not moderating.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

Please contact Kofi Anan for the pics.

i did... and this is what he said (read from the very site you directed me to)

He said the missing material can be used for legitimate purposes. "However, they can also be utilized for prohibited purposes if in a good state of repair."

the missing material can be used for legitimate purposes.

well...

me thinks that Union Carbide had more gas producing facilites that could've been termed WMDs, than what was found in Iraq... and the related disaster in Bopal India in the late 80s killed almost half as many people as Saddam's savagery...

also...

http://hnn.us/articles/1242.html

In a recent New York Times op-ed, Stephen Pelletiere argued that the March, 1988, gassing of Kurds during the waning months of the Iran-Iraq war may have been perpetrated by Iran, not Iraq. This issue has taken on importance because Iraqi President Saddam Hussein's gassing of the Kurds is often given as one ground for the U.S. to go to war to effect regime change. As it happens, Pelletiere, a former CIA analyst, is just plain wrong and appears not to have kept up with documentation made available during the past decade.

and also...

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle1779.htm

The former CIA official revealed that immediately after the battle the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report that said it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds

nahhh, your purpose and agenda is clear here... facts have no bearing in your arguement... only your obviously anti Arabic agenda...

you see only what you want to see, and you use it as fuel to your ignorance of anything remotely factual...

what you say has very little to do with terrorism... and more to do with what is obviously your inbred hate for an entire ethnicity...


@ Abraham...

I find it a bit childish of you to complain about a lack of moderation in this case and mingle another discussion on another thread with this one.
But if you really need a moderator, I suggest you send a P.M. (it's the little button down left) to one of the other moderators of this forum.

your finding it childish is important only in your own mind... and Neal has already been notified of the goings on here...

what's more important is this forum being used as a sounding board for the vilification of an entire people, and as a perverse means of promoting an obvious agenda of hate and ethnic bias... and it's being condoned by a moderating member...

THIS IS WRONG... i cannot in good conscience stand by and watch this continue... this community deserves better...

it was a place where members of a common interest could come and enjoy the exchange of info, opinions, etc without fear of persecution, merely because they were of a certain ethnic group...

unfounded persecution at that... all people of Arab ethnicity or of the Muslim faith are not terrorist, nor do they seek the destruction of anyone... it is the extremists on both sides that wave this sort of flag... some of which we are seeing here now...

i am neither Arabic nor Muslim... i was born of a Catholic family... and i am reviled by the fact that so many here who consider themselves Christian, even those who are not Christian, but consider themselves fair minded... would stand by and watch this sort of thing, and not comment...

i should make public just a few of the emails i've received recently by members here who for their own reasons refuse to become involved in this mess, but who have made it clear that they've seen this going on for a while now... and they object to it as well...

there is an undercurrent of discontent here, brought about not only by an obviously biased individual here, but encouraged by you directly...

i am not the only one who draws parallels to this situation and those involved directly... if you didn't already know the definition of the term vilify, look at www.dictionary.com

[Download Now or Buy the Book]
Source: The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition
Copyright © 2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company.
Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.


vilify

v : spread negative information about; "The Nazi propaganda vilified the Jews" [syn: revile, vituperate, rail]

can ya see now why my references earlier took the direction that they did... how ironically fitting in this particular context...

this is a dark day for all of us here... and you are part of the darkness by your condoning such activities...

--Mike

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

the missing material can be used for legitimate purposes.

I agree 100%, but:

He said the missing material can be used for legitimate purposes. "However, they can also be utilized for prohibited purposes if in a good state of repair."

You're a real optimist, Mike...

In a recent New York Times op-ed, Stephen Pelletiere argued that the March, 1988, gassing of Kurds during the waning months of the Iran-Iraq war may have been perpetrated by Iran, not Iraq... As it happens, Pelletiere, a former CIA analyst, is just plain wrong and appears not to have kept up with documentation made available during the past decade.

And funny too...

The former CIA official revealed that immediately after the battle the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency investigated and produced a classified report that said it was Iranian gas that killed the Kurds

The only logical conclusion I can draw from this quote is that it's source is not reliable.
I fail to grasp this conclusion:

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red October'Hense

nahhh, your purpose and agenda is clear here... facts have no bearing in your arguement... only your obviously anti Arabic agenda...
you see only what you want to see, and you use it as fuel to your ignorance of anything remotely factual...
what you say has very little to do with terrorism... and more to do with what is obviously your inbred hate for an entire ethnicity...

And neither do I understand whom you're talking to... Me? The Avon Lady? Yourself?

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

You're a real optimist, Mike...

me being an optimist or a pessimist is irrelevant... the fact is that in not one case has there been any proof or evidence connecting any of this with the construction of so called WMDs...

in a court of law, this would be thrown out as circumstantial, and the jury would be forced to find the defendant not guilty beyond a reasonable doubt...

optimism or pessimism has nothing to do with the facts... and that's where your mind and the other ones seems to stop working...

And neither do I understand whom you're talking to... Me? The Avon Lady? Yourself?

that's not the only obvious thing you fail to understand... one of the many things that you fail to understand is, that as a moderator here, you must excercise a modicum of objectivity and fairness in administering your moderator responsibilities... i'm not the only one who has made this apparent to you...

plus... you have succeeded in carrying over your arguement from the other post to this one... in direct disregard to the request made ny Neal to let it rest...

discussing the topic at hand is one thing... you've forced this beyond that...


--Mike

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense

i did... and this is what he said (read from the very site you directed me to)

the missing material can be used for legitimate purposes.

well...

me thinks that Union Carbide had more gas producing facilites that could've been termed WMDs, than what was found in Iraq... and the related disaster in Bopal India in the late 80s killed almost half as many people as Saddam's savagery...

The same article also states:

Before the first Gulf War in 1991, those facilities played a major part in the production of precursors for Iraq's chemical warfare program

So you think they converted these facilities over to manufacturing sausage casings perhaps?

This is what happens when you snip a sentence out of an entire article and remove it from its context.

also...

http://hnn.us/articles/1242.html

Gee............... when I say something MAY HAVE BEEN, you get all berserk and go into a conniption but it's OK for you to quote people who theorize.

and also...

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle1779.htm

So the whole worlld has been lied to and our hero, Mike, here, has revealed the truth and changed history through linking to crackpot sites like the Information Clearing House?

nahhh, your purpose and agenda is clear here... facts have no bearing in your arguement... only your obviously anti Arabic agenda...

Frankly, I wonder what your agenda is. It isn't truth. It isn't objectivity. Well, I have some ideas about ilk like you that call people like me worse that Nazi concentration camp kommandants. The shoes fit you Mike. Wear them in good health.

you see only what you want to see, and you use it as fuel to your ignorance of anything remotely factual...

Have you ever tried looking in a mirror, Mike?

what you say has very little to do with terrorism... and more to do with what is obviously your inbred hate for an entire ethnicity...

[Konovalov]

I thought that to win an argument you had to present facts that were beyond dispute. Unfortunately it seems the trend here is just to "muddy the waters" with and if here, and maybe there, and you win the debate. I'm surprised no one here has dragged out the Iraqi guy that Fox news presented a little while back to claim that all the WMD's were flown to Syria. So excuse me while I continue to hold onto the "Marvin the Martian stole Iraq's WMD's" line.

[Mike 'Red Ocktober' Hense]

Frankly, I wonder what your agenda is.

i have no agenda... like i told you before... if i could, i would lock all you over there who find it so easy to hate and kill, in a big cube, and lock the door... and forget about you...

you call yourself the Avon Lady... but your foul mouth and ethnic bias suggestes that you are, in fact, no lady at all...

decorum prevents me from giving you a proper title...

So the whole worlld has been lied to and our hero, Mike, here, has revealed the truth

as this madness continues... the truth will surface... just has it has been slowly doing all along...

i'm an American... i've served in the military... i'll defend our country against any and all threats... right now the biggest threat is the ignorance of people like you...

and as a side note, i am a member of this community... a long standing member... and i will be happy to do the same here as well...

in short... you have no facts... your reasoning is biased, therefore whatever you say is flawed and to be suspect...

your right to say it is one thing... your right to publicly condemn a whole group of peoples because of your bias is another... and that i won't stand for... and hopefully, the forum admins will address this...

--Mike

[Happy Times]

Geopolitics, Energy, China, Russia, India, Iran, Saudi-Arabia, Pakistan, Syria, Islam, Terrorism. Someone thought it would be good to have a democratic state in the region to spread the idea to the rest of them. A loyal ally from where to conduct diplomacy and possible operations in the region. A reliable supplier of energy, and from where you could control and observe the energy supply of your rivals. These may have been miscalculatons of different levels. I honestly dont care. Im tired of this discussion, in the future everybody have to think really hard what their best interest is. I have chosen my side, it wasnt hard to do when you look at this facked up world. Some call me a pessimist, i consider myself a realist.