Big election victory for Hamas

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

ok your gonna think this is funny, but aint these the last days? in biblical terms. Isn't it, When Isreal is surrounded by her enemies your know these are the last days....

I don't think it's funny.

However, the last days have been going on for these last years.

One thing, however, is certain. We're getting closer with each passing day.

[kiwi_2005]

I only said funny cos i know some will see it that way. I dont, i think its happening as I speak. The last days means yrs.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by kiwi_2005

I only said funny cos i know some will see it that way. I dont, i think its happening as I speak. The last days means yrs.

Yes. It retains its meaning clearly in the original Hebrew, "Acharit Ha'yamin", literally translated as "the end of (the) days."

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by kali

Educate yourself with competent literature from non-Muslim sources, so that you can form an independent understanding of the TRUE nature of Islam that is not distorted by Islam'S twisted, contradictive and two-faced self-description. Don't trust those who are propagating the equality of Islam to Western values for their own opportunistic reasons. Then you'll see how much off target YOU were before.
Where is the merit in only considering or even exposing yourself to those things that you're already likely to agree with? Reading only non-muslim souces gains you no enlightenment nor will it expand your understanding of anything. This is a recipe for a closed and bigoted mind and does nothing towards the furtherment of democracy. It is much easier to vilify another if you don't have to listen to him, consider his opinion or question that he is even capable of thought. And ultimately it is easier to kill him.

Proponet of National Socialism explains himself such about the Jewish question

Educate yourself with competent literature from non-Jewish sources, so that you can form an independent understanding of the TRUE nature of Jews that is not distorted by Judiasm twisted, contradictive and two-faced self-description. Don't trust those who are propagating the equality of Judiasm to Western values for their own opportunistic reasons. Then you'll see how much off target YOU were before.

Arabs are not like us, they have a different religion and all and well they dress funny and they talk funny and who can understand that scripple that passes for writing. there just not ready for democracy nor do they value human life like we do. perhaps a solution without their bothersome input is required, perhaps one that is well....FINAL

@ Kali:
First of all welcome aboard!

A few remarks from me as moderator.
You quoted a part of a posting from Skybird. It is advisable to use the quote button in the upper right of postings and delete whatever you don't want to quote. You can also type: [quote= "Skybird"] and cut and paste, as long as you finish with /quote (between [].
If you want to be a regular poster, or post about potentially controversional subjects, it is wise the check:
http://www.subsim.com/phpBB/faq.php#0

What are Subsim.com's editorial policies?
The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general. As such, we retain the right to edit and/or delete posts we find offensive. We also have the right to ban users who contribute to poisoning the well. Just as a radio talk host has the right to decide who he airs and a newspaper editor decides whose letters he prints and whose he throws away, the moderators in the Radio Room forums have final say on rants and spews they decide should be cut.

What role do Subsim forum moderators play?
Subsim forums allow a wide range of discussion freedom but there are limits. Moderators volunteer to see that the forums do not descend into chaos and anarchy and that the rules are adhered to. Members should not publicly attack a Moderator or intentionally undermine a Moderator's actions. It is okay for a member to publicly ask a Moderator why an admonishment was issued; it is okay for a member to publicly disagree with a Moderator. It is not okay for a member to harass, bait, or slander a Moderator. If a member wishes to challenge a Moderator action that involves the member, this challenge must be raised in private via PM or email, not in public.

Actually it is good for all of us to read these rules every now and then.
They were set by "Onkel" Neal Stevens, the founder of Subsim.com. We're basically his guests here and as such we have to behave.
The General Topic Forum allows members to discuss (almost) every subject, but in order to keep the discussions to the point we do not allow personal attacks, generalisations about racism (anti-Semitism included) or about religions. ("All Christians are ... " etc. to name but one example). This does not exclude criticising religions or the behaviour of religious persons.

More specific I find your posting not fair towards Skybird. You alter his quote and put it under the banner:
"Proponet of National Socialism explains himself such about the Jewish question"
You further make references to "the FINAL solution" in a way that may be both offensive towards Skybird as well as towards our Jewish forum members.
As you certainly know some subjects are sensitive. Always keep in mind how other forum members might react to your postings. When in doubt, press the Preview button before the Submit button.
If you stick to these rules, you'll be most welcome and you'll find plenty of space on this forum to express your opinion!

Abraham
(with moderator cap on)

[Abraham]

I think if the West takes the stand that Hamas will have to abstain from violence and recognise Israel before further aid projects are initiated, the party will split up in an dogmatic and a pragmatic wing. A majority party within the Palestinian Authority is an unlikely phenomenon anyway.

A little bit of Realpolitik and tough bargaining from the West is needed:
No honey for the West, no money for Hamas.
No peace with Israel, no Palestinian State.

And let's not forget this is the Middle East. It's the worlds biggest marketplace.
They sell fruit, they sell souvenirs, they sell drugs, they sell weapons, they sell women, eventually they'll sell principles...
In the meantime everybody talks with everybody behind everybody's back.

[Type941]

say hello to democracy you all so much support. doesn't get more democratic that that.. Perhaps the US feked up and need to be sending in some 'opposition' who would say elections were 'not fair'. Give them all a flower and make another flower revolution. Oh wait, that won't work - they'd be shot to shxt.

Quite sad actually this whole business. Now you got terrorists in power.

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Type941

doesn't get more democratic that that

Democracy is not about electing a great government, it's about removing it.

Palestine is as democratic as one of Kapitain's polls.

[Skybird]

I start to wonder if option 1 and 3 are really excluding each other.

[bradclark1]

Looks like a war between the Fatas and the Hamas.

[August]

Originally Posted by Type941

say hello to democracy you all so much support. doesn't get more democratic that that.. Perhaps the US feked up and need to be sending in some 'opposition' who would say elections were 'not fair'. Give them all a flower and make another flower revolution. Oh wait, that won't work - they'd be shot to shxt.

Quite sad actually this whole business. Now you got terrorists in power.

I got news for you, terrorists have always been in power in the Palestinian controlled areas, unless you think Arafat was some sort of saint, which he certainly wasn't.

Unlike you, i have no problem with democracy. Peace is never worth absolutism and tyranny.

Yes Avon Lady, they are slowly getting rid of Israel. I agree with you.

[Hitman]

Looks like the democracy won again :hmm:

Anyone else willing to defend democracy as a good government system?

I can right now remember that Hitler also reached the power through an election....

Aristhoteles said it already 2500 years ago: The democracy is the government of the majority and the majority are unfortunately the idiots. Great.

On a more positive note, I just saw a documentary at TV interviewing some people at Palestina and looking for answers. One of them -but not the only contributing reason- could be that after so many years of an static conflict with no apparent progress, people were tired and wanted to shift to someone else to see what happens. Most Palestinians seem to think things could not be worser (They are wrong but who cares...) so they elected Hamas if not really being supporters of them.

In any case I think the Palestinians have been right in something: Hamas at the government will end once and for all this conflict. But they did not guess that it will probably end with the extermination of the palestinians

[Type941]

Originally Posted by August

I got news for you, terrorists have always been in power in the Palestinian controlled areas, unless you think Arafat was some sort of saint, which he certainly wasn't.

Unlike you, i have no problem with democracy. Peace is never worth absolutism and tyranny.

AH... what the heck are you even on about? Why did you qoute me with that response? I never said anything about that rat Arafat, and my single point is that now you got this new terrorist government in power officially and the rest of the world has to put up with it because it has been elected according to the ways, the US is forcefully ejecting into every little country in the world it's interesting in. I know you are american and all, but when will you get that things done not american way are not wrong.


If you are so fond of democracy, you need to at least open up your eyes a little to what's happening in the world (georgia, ukraine for instance). And as the poster above said, Hitler was elected democratically, by majority. This all goes to this idiotism that's going on around the world these days on how communism and fashism are the same thing (first is a form of ideology exploited by the monsters in power while the latter is a purely anti-semetic, racial, ultranationalistic and disgusting idiology). The world is a funny thing these days.

[Skybird]

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Lord Acton)

I often made the observation that a single individual may appear to be intelligent. But the more people are crowding together and building a mass, the more their signs of intelligence are fading, and the more behavior is collectively ruled by by an anonymous authority - may it come from social pressure; may it come from a hierarchy of lobbyists (mostly egoists); may it come from a believe of the individual that now he has not to take care himself about thinking, because all the others now surely would do that; may it come from the belief that when all others are doing something, the majority probably is right and so it cannot hurt to do the same oneself. The bigger a crowd, the more stupid human beeings turn out to act, it seems to me. The more isolated a human beeing is, the more he tends to make use of his own brain. --- What tells this about democratic decision finding processes...?

[TteFAboB]

Originally Posted by Hitman

Looks like the democracy won again :hmm:

Anyone else willing to defend democracy as a good government system?

I can right now remember that Hitler also reached the power through an election....

Aristhoteles said it already 2500 years ago: The democracy is the government of the majority and the majority are unfortunately the idiots. Great.

What majority? Palestinian majority? French majority? Universal majority?

Originally Posted by Type941

If you are so fond of democracy, you need to at least open up your eyes a little to what's happening in the world (georgia, ukraine for instance). And as the poster above said, Hitler was elected democratically, by majority. This all goes to this idiotism that's going on around the world these days on how communism and fashism are the same thing (first is a form of ideology exploited by the monsters in power while the latter is a purely anti-semetic, racial, ultranationalistic and disgusting idiology).

Elections are a vital part of Democracy, however, Democracy is not an Election, elections are commonly used to make-up or justify a government, that is a mistake.

Democracy is a process, elections are a mere tool to bond the past and future. It's the results and continuity that makes a Democracy, not a single election, not an instant in time, not a referendum, it's what comes after the election itself and what remains or changes from before that characterizes a Democracy.

To reduce an analysis of Democracy to Hitler is to give credit to minority, Hitler was alone, he gathered a bunch of little friends, a minority of nations from all over the world, and he even lost the war to the Majority, to the Major Alliance, to an Alliance of many democratically elected governments, most of the world.

What's important to remember is that a Democracy is not stuck in time, what was democratic in 1910's is no longer democratic today, and vice-versa actually, because of modern extremist proponents of direct democracy.

Originally Posted by Skybird

Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." (Lord Acton)

I often made the observation that a single individual may appear to be intelligent. But the more people are crowding together and building a mass, the more their signs of intelligence are fading, and the more behavior is collectively ruled by by an anonymous authority - may it come from social pressure; may it come from a hierarchy of lobbyists (mostly egoists); may it come from a believe of the individual that now he has not to take care himself about thinking, because all the others now surely would do that; may it come from the belief that when all others are doing something, the majority probably is right and so it cannot hurt to do the same oneself. The bigger a crowd, the more stupid human beeings turn out to act, it seems to me. The more isolated a human beeing is, the more he tends to make use of his own brain. --- What tells this about democratic decision finding processes...?

Contradiction, this tells the democratic decision finding process serves the interest of the minority, a political elite, an economical elite, lobbyists, dumb masses won't notice corruption, dumb masses won't notice populism, dumb masses won't demand any different, hence, a majority elected government when faced by dumb masses will serve their own self minority interests.

You point the problem to be in the masses, various causes, various points, hence the problem is not Democracy, but the people who make the Democracy, I agree about the mass phenomenon, however, according to your own logic, intelligent politicians will act intelligently when isolated, I find it to be quite the contrary, when politicians are isolated from the rest of the country, they act even more to serve their own interests. To use the same example: Hitler, do you think Germans would vote for him if he told them Berlim would be torn to ashes? Do you think Germans would vote for him if they knew he would split Germany in half? Do you think Germans would vote for him if he told about the holocaust? The Nazis would.

But Hitler is a phenomenon derived from WWI, and WWI was the suicide of Europe, but what led to WWI was exactly the lack of Democracy, Democracies in turmoil, if the Democracy is made by the people, the people of 1910/20's are to blame, not their form of government.

There are many winds of lack of faith in Democracy that blow from Europe, stagnant Europe who fails to re-invent itself since the end of WW2, that's an European problem for Europeans, what is a fact is that no other form of government managed to improve the life of the developing world, don't forget the point: A Democracy is not a legitimally elected government, it's the process.

How could the dumb uneducated masses of the 3rd world progress with Democracy then? If they can, why can't the Europeans? Is there not an inversion here? Shouldn't it be the contrary?

Makes you think, where are the dumb masses afterall.