NSA spying on US Citizens

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by *[FOX

* Bort]Well, so much for your vast left wing media consipracy,

Did we miss something? Who said such?

August, Bushy has admitted it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4538286.stm

This was in the news yesterday. It's old news already.

Also, If a terrorist attack occured and Bush had done everything LEGAL in his power to prevent it, I would not criticize him. You know there is such a thing as POLICE WORK that involves all of those pesky COURTS and RIGHTS. It seems to me all of this spying is an excuse to be lazy and arbitrary, not to protect the US by doing the job right.

And you're a national security expert to make such an assessment? Your real life job is what exactly?

And I keep on asking to clearly lay out what was illegal here? Are there any facts on this anywhere?

[PeriscopeDepth]

Inter Arma Silent Leges. Or something like that.

Mike, you refer to the NSA's charter. I thought that for the NSA had to get a FISA warrant to monitor an American? Could you clarify please?

Personally, I wouldn't be surprised if what Bush did was illegal. And Congress DID NOT know. Him briefing the Congressional leaders means a handful of people knew. I understand that if he actually took it to Congress, it wouldn't be secret anymore. IMO, Bush is on very thin ice. But he's not going to get in trouble for it because it's war time. And if it really did prevent attacks I think it was worth it. Illegal, but worth it. Kind of like the suspension of Habeas Corpus during the Civil War. Or the Emancipation Proclamation, arguably.

I believe in his speech he said he did it about 30 times. I don't see why it couldn't have gone through FISA, as FISA requests are rarely denied.

PD

[Type941]

Originally Posted by Iceman

"Hi dad...
Hi sweetie....................
I always do sweetie...bye bye
Bye..."

I can think of few much different scenarios which can be totally taken the wrong way.

Like mentioning your freind Jamey has started taking flight school classes and you are thinking of giving it a try yourself. Good luck with the rest.

I'm sure finding out what's it like to live with KGB-type organization next to you is not going to be comforting. And knowing how they get the information, with incompetent personnel that at times tortures you, well... Id' be hoping never to get in the path of those people, who consider everyone on this war on terror to be void of any human rights. So if you are a suspect - good luck. Checks and Balances... Man this has become such a cliche.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by PeriscopeDepth

Inter Arma Silent Leges. Or something like that.

"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"

[PeriscopeDepth]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

"Inter Arma Enim Silent Leges"

Thanks, TLAM.

[The Avon Lady]

Hot off the wireless!

Text of Bush's radio address.

[August]

Originally Posted by *[FOX

* Bort]Well, so much for your vast left wing media consipracy, August, Bushy has admitted it.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4538286.stm
Also, If a terrorist attack occured and Bush had done everything LEGAL in his power to prevent it, I would not criticize him. You know there is such a thing as POLICE WORK that involves all of those pesky COURTS and RIGHTS. It seems to me all of this spying is an excuse to be lazy and arbitrary, not to protect the US by doing the job right.

Yeah i read the article. So what? nobody ever denied surveillance occured but whether said surveillance was omg "illegal".

From your BBC article. Note the bolded part:

But in his address on Saturday, Mr Bush said the programme was "critical to saving American lives".

The president said some of the 11 September hijackers inside the United States had communicated with associates outside the country before the attacks - but that the US had not known that until it was too late.

"The American people expect me to do everything in my power, under our laws and Constitution, to protect them and our civil liberties," he said.

He said Congressional leaders had been briefed on the programme, which has been renewed more than 30 times.

In spite of the irepeated ncorrect spelling of "program" please note that not only was Congress involved in the process from the start, they've had 30 opportunities to put a stop to it.

So again i ask: Why is this suddenly a big deal?

[August]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Hot off the wireless!

Text of Bush's radio address.

I'll bet the only ones who bother to click that link are those who haven't made up their minds that Bush is teh Hitler.

[MadMike]

Periscope Depth,
First, you'll have to review the federal register to define what "monitoring" is (in the legal sense).
Say, when is the media going to divulge when such activity (gasp) was taking place during the Clinton era?!?

Yours, Mike

[Kiwi Zero Six]

Supposedly all the intercepts were done on the receiving end of the comms...no big deal.

[Fish]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Here's a simple question to the reactionary Bush-bashers among you:

Had an attack that could have been prevented succeeded because these covert efforts wouldn't have taken place and thousands of people would have been killed, would you have been the first ones to stand up for the Bush administration and proclaim what a great job he's doing defending the US and everyone's civil liberties?

Nuts.

Tut tut, thats a false argument, and your clever enough to know. :|\

[PeriscopeDepth]

Briefing Congressional leaders does not mean he was acting with the authority of the legislative behind him.

PD

August, I agree with you on that statement. Although maybe Bush is actually the Anti-christ and not Adolf Hitler the 2nd.

[PeriscopeDepth]

For the record, I don't hate Bush and I think these intercepts were the right thing to do if they saved lives.

I'm just debating whether or not they were legal.

PD

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

The path to arbitrariness is paved with good intentions.

In principle there must not be anything bad in preemptive monitoring. But there needs to be a countercontrolling instance making sure this monitoring gremium gets not abused; and the countercontrolling gremium itself also needs to be beyond doubt of having different interests. A basic principle of every democratic system: countercontrol. Bypassing it must be followed by penalty. Practices must be correctly labelled. Rules must be followed. No matter what the intention is.

Well said