Shooting your enemy in the back - Page 3

joea · 12-13-05, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

Quote:

Originally Posted by August

Quote:

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

If we were in a duel, I already would have decided your defeat, and while you would still discuss the conditions for the duel to take place, I already would have cut you into two pieces with my first strike - that is my policy, you see.

Of course, us bystanders would have cried "Foul!" and cut you down at once.

I get his plow horse!

Germans never learn it seems. Poland all over again.

Yes, it is the bad, ugly German bad boys again.

Fighting a war without compromise is different from liking to fight, or easily triggerign war for unjustified reasons.

Poland. You must be kidding, if you compoared me to the Nazi attack on Poland. Better look at the foul reasons of your own country for starting your latest military enterprise - one of many. And compared to the scale of the mess you created you cannot come up with anything truly satisfying that could justify your calling for war. So who is the monster here - me, or you? Maybe I would fight a war more uncompromising than you do - but I wouldn'T start it for such idiotic reasons. And that is the deciding difference.

Well I believed for myself that the point about Pearl Harbour was not the actual attack (in military terms I too admire the attack as much as the attack on Poland or the initial sweep into Iraq in 2003, and I oppose all 3 actions, not that they are the same

) but the context...an act of aggression that to my mind as I wrote to our local IJN fan here (I am one too I admit) could not be seperated from Japanese actions in the rest of Asia. PH also meant death and suffering for Canadian lads sent uselessly to Hong Kong, AZNACS in Singapore, the Filipino people, Dutch in Indonesia etc. It seems both Americans and non-Americans here want to turn everything from history into a comment on the great old USA. Just as the Second World War did not (even in the Pacific let alone Europe) revolve around the USA, neither does the world today. For the other side, the USA is not the unique source of evil, and the war in Iraq not the only injustice going on today.

I really am getting sick of this. Anyway, Skybird is not a warmonger as written on another thread. no way, he hs cewrtainly experienced violence I have not...and that comes across in his postings.

bradclark1 · 12-13-05, 07:11 PM

Quote:

It seems both Americans and non-Americans here want to turn everything from history into a comment on the great old USA. Just as the Second World War did not (even in the Pacific let alone Europe) revolve around the USA, neither does the world today.

I'd have to say you are dead wrong and I'm not saying it because I'm an arrogant American. American industry supplied the most equipment out of any country in the war. American manpower supplied most of the manpower in both theaters.
Take those three equations out of the problem and you would be speaking German or Japanese. Thats a fact or please prove me wrong.
Without America the invasion of europe would never of happened.
Without America and the Liberty ships England would have starved.

Iceman · 12-13-05, 10:10 PM

Lock this thread plz Neal.

I only posted it to show my measure of respect for those who died that day. It is a great and terrible day to me partly being from Arizona I feel for the men aboard the USS Arizona yet always celebrate it being it is my daughters birthday....she's 9 now so for me it is a bitter sweet day that I will always always hold dear.

December 7 truly a day of Infamy.

The Avon Lady · 12-14-05, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

yet always celebrate it being it is my daughters birthday....

It's one of our son's birthday, too.

That is how all of our children know more about PH Day than most of their friends and neighbors. Yes, they've all watched "Tora, Tora, Tora" - even our youngest.

joea · 12-14-05, 05:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bradclark1

Quote:

It seems both Americans and non-Americans here want to turn everything from history into a comment on the great old USA. Just as the Second World War did not (even in the Pacific let alone Europe) revolve around the USA, neither does the world today.

I'd have to say you are dead wrong and I'm not saying it because I'm an arrogant American. American industry supplied the most equipment out of any country in the war. American manpower supplied most of the manpower in both theaters.
Take those three equations out of the problem and you would be speaking German or Japanese. Thats a fact or please prove me wrong.
Without America the invasion of europe would never of happened.
Without America and the Liberty ships England would have starved.

Did you read the rest of what I wrote...I posted my respect on this thread...I have argued for the importance of American involvment (even with Russians who are rightfully on about thire huge sacrifices) and criticised the European attitude and obsession with the US too. Everything your wrote is true, but the US would have paid a much higher price without the time bought by the Brits, or blood spilled by the Russians (or Chinese, most IJA troops were in China), and I do in general like the States and it's influence in the past.

jumpy · 12-14-05, 08:00 AM

Seeing as everyone else is having a go

here's my contribution:

As far as I can see there's some dispute about war and commiting fully to it these days- if you're going to war, then don't start pissing about pretending how noble and justified it is, you've done that already- just get on with it. and finnish it up as fast as possible (it being war, the best way to do this is to kill as many of the enemy and his reasources as possible in the shortest time) I think that's the gist of what Skybird was on about.
The Japanese strike on pearl harbour; I always understood that this was a inevitable considering japans designs on pacific expansion at the time- the american navy being the largest force to overcome to ensure a chance of victory in the pacific for Japan. They were hardly likely to telephone the president and say "well mr president, we're going to annex all the pacific and to do that we need to remove your pacific fleet from the equation to ensure success. Is a week on friday ok with you for this?" From a Japanese military standpoint this is/was entirely an valid and logical reason for a (to use the modern term) 'pre-emptive first strike' on pearl harbour.

That it's a tragedy of loss of human life is not disputable, but never the less to be expected given the circumstances.
Give a thought to all of them who never came home. It is no more or less a tragedy than anything which happens in wartime if you ask me.

The Avon Lady · 12-14-05, 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpy

That it's a tragedy of loss of human life is not disputable, but never the less to be expected given the circumstances.

The important word that's missing here is "inexcusable".

jumpy · 12-14-05, 10:15 AM

Who's condoning it?

The Avon Lady · 12-14-05, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpy

Who's condoning it?

I found the words "but never the less to be expected given the circumstances" vague.

Skybird · 12-14-05, 10:39 AM

WTF...??? This is what unbiased moderation is about. Not only stabbing from behind, but turning the blade inside the wound. Whoever did it obviously has not the slightest idea what I was talking about - in another thread. This one has not been started by me. Nor is the title by me. correct it, or delete it.

The Avon Lady · 12-14-05, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skybird

huh?...??? This is what unbiased moderation is about. Not only stabbing from behind, but turning the blade inside the wound. Whoever did it obviously has not the slightest idea what I was talking about - in another thread. This one has not been started by me. Nor is the title by me. correct it, or delete it.

I have a more constructive idea:

What would you name the thread?

jumpy · 12-14-05, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpy

Who's condoning it?

I found the words "but never the less to be expected given the circumstances" vague.

*sigh* I forget that there are some people in this world who only deal in absolutes...
Yes, to be expected given the circumstances of imminent outbreak of war in the pacific from the Japanese military point of view, as I have already made clear, or is that too 'vague'?
At no point did I express that it was my personal oppinion that this action was 'right', or did you miss that?

The Avon Lady · 12-14-05, 11:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpy

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Quote:

Originally Posted by jumpy

Who's condoning it?

I found the words "but never the less to be expected given the circumstances" vague.

*sigh* I forget that there are some people in this world who only deal in absolutes...
Yes, to be expected given the circumstances of imminent outbreak of war in the pacific from the Japanese military point of view, as I have already made clear, or is that too 'vague'?
At no point did I express that it was my personal oppinion that this action was 'right', or did you miss that?

*sigh* It's often hard to read emotions or sense intentions in written text.

jumpy · 12-14-05, 11:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

*sigh* It's often hard to read emotions or sense intentions in written text. yep

Agreed.

*wanders off for five minutes to find a nice refreshingly cool glass of water*

12-14-05, 08:00 AM	#6
jumpy Admiral Join Date: May 2003 Location: Midlands, UK Posts: 2,139 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Seeing as everyone else is having a go here's my contribution: As far as I can see there's some dispute about war and commiting fully to it these days- if you're going to war, then don't start pissing about pretending how noble and justified it is, you've done that already- just get on with it. and finnish it up as fast as possible (it being war, the best way to do this is to kill as many of the enemy and his reasources as possible in the shortest time) I think that's the gist of what Skybird was on about. The Japanese strike on pearl harbour; I always understood that this was a inevitable considering japans designs on pacific expansion at the time- the american navy being the largest force to overcome to ensure a chance of victory in the pacific for Japan. They were hardly likely to telephone the president and say "well mr president, we're going to annex all the pacific and to do that we need to remove your pacific fleet from the equation to ensure success. Is a week on friday ok with you for this?" From a Japanese military standpoint this is/was entirely an valid and logical reason for a (to use the modern term) 'pre-emptive first strike' on pearl harbour. That it's a tragedy of loss of human life is not disputable, but never the less to be expected given the circumstances. Give a thought to all of them who never came home. It is no more or less a tragedy than anything which happens in wartime if you ask me. __________________ when you’ve been so long in the desert, any water, no matter how brackish, looks like life

12-14-05, 10:15 AM	#8
jumpy Admiral Join Date: May 2003 Location: Midlands, UK Posts: 2,139 Downloads: 22 Uploads: 0	Who's condoning it? __________________ when you’ve been so long in the desert, any water, no matter how brackish, looks like life

12-14-05, 10:39 AM	#10
Skybird Soaring Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: the mental asylum named Germany Posts: 42,646 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	WTF...??? This is what unbiased moderation is about. Not only stabbing from behind, but turning the blade inside the wound. Whoever did it obviously has not the slightest idea what I was talking about - in another thread. This one has not been started by me. Nor is the title by me. correct it, or delete it. __________________ If you feel nuts, consult an expert.

12-13-05, 10:10 PM	#3
Iceman Ace of the Deep Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Mesa AZ, Arizona, USA Posts: 1,253 Downloads: 5 Uploads: 0	Lock this thread plz Neal. I only posted it to show my measure of respect for those who died that day. It is a great and terrible day to me partly being from Arizona I feel for the men aboard the USS Arizona yet always celebrate it being it is my daughters birthday....she's 9 now so for me it is a bitter sweet day that I will always always hold dear. December 7 truly a day of Infamy.