Western culture gone too far ? In light of clash...

[Kissaki]

[quote="Sixpack"][quote="Kissaki"]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

It's not like the West welcomes them with open arms and offer them the best of everything. It's more like smashing a food tray down in front of them, and ordering, "here, eat! And shut the F up". How is anyone supposed to react to that kind of attitude? Circumstances considered, their behaviour has for the most part been exemplary.

Their homelands were glad they left. Most of them were the bottom level/losers of their own societies. They however ended up in fairy-tale land.

If they are refugees they often come with their families. And the reason they come is to escape persecution. If they are not persecuted in their homeland, they don't get refugee status, simple as that.

We have that problem here in Norway too, but immigrants can't be said to be the main contributors.

They corrupted the original Dutch hard working mentality.
They kept on speaking their own languages.
They did not (want to) become Dutch.
They did not learn our history and they frankly dont give a f*ck.
They introduced the social unrest in my country.

When I project the same stuff on Norway, I understand your fellow Norwegians to a very large extent.

But the list you mention has nothing to do with Muslims. They have the same integration problem in the US with illegal aliens from the south. That's why you have major Spanish speaking parts in states like Florida, where they get a lot of immigrants from Cuba. So why blame Muslims for the similar situation in Europe? Should Americans blame Catholics?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

The problem is, the alternative is everybody's right, and by consequence everybody's wrong. Because opinions are like children: We are most fond of our own. And what, objectively, makes anyone's opinion more valid than anothers? There is no black and white. Yin and Yang, neither can exist without the other.

No. There are absolutes in this world. And while it's rare to be 100% absolutely correct 100% of the time, there's nothing wrong with being 85% correct when arguing with someone who is 15% correct and 85% full of buba-meises.

And yes there is black and white. You must have a unique color blindness problem.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Sixpack

Our churches are empty, Abraham, yet mosqs are loaded with believers.
I kind of feel guilty for not being a church-goer for I feel I am abandoning my forefathers who once made this land great.

Who would you be worshipping? Your god, or your forefathers? Religion should be a matter of personal faith, not familial obligation. My parents are devout Christians, and I love and respect them like none other, yet I cannot be a Christian for their sake. If I don't believe, I don't believe. I am still officially a member of the State Church, however, because I know it would pain my father to see me leave it. To me it's just a piece of paper anyway, and I have no need to demonstrate my actual beliefs.

Think of our golden 17th century, on which our current wealth is still largely based. Our forefathers would probably kick our asses. Admiral Michiel de Ruijter was the kind of Dutchman this land needs in large numbers. Firm in his principles, big in action.

Like several Muslim leaders today, then. Good job civilization isn't about survival of the fittest.

[Sixpack]

I have no personal experience with poor Mexican immigrants seeking a better life in the USA but at least their agenda is clear and strictly economical. Also, the descendants of Spanish and native Mexican indians possibly do have a fair claim there

We have an influx of Roman-Catholicism from Poland (immigrants). Fine by me. Wish they could have come sooner, say 25 years ago.

You missed my point of our many (not all !) islamic immigrants not motivated to adapt and fully live by our rules and habits: "When in Rome do as the Romans". And even abusing our system in undenyable proportions.

I also dont compare USA and Europe: 2 different worlds culture wise.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Sixpack

I have no personal experience with poor Mexican immigrants seeking a better life in the USA but at least their agenda is clear and strictly economical. Also, the descendants of Spanish and native Mexican indians possibly do have a fair claim there

And Muslim immigrants don't come to Europe seeking a better life for strictly economical reasons? They certainly don't come here for religious reasons. Not exactly Mekka over here.

We have an influx of Roman-Catholicism from Poland (immigrants). Fine by me. Wish they could have come sooner, say 25 years ago.

And why is that, exactly?

You missed my point of our many (not all !) islamic immigrants not motivated to adapt and fully live by our rules and habits: "When in Rome do as the Romans". And even abusing our system in undenyable proportions.

I think you missed mine. I pointed to similar behaviour in another country by different groups, thereby refuting your claim that this has anything to do with religion.

I also dont compare USA and Europe: 2 different worlds culture wise.

But with the same trends, at least in respect to the list you brought up.

[Sixpack]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Who would you be worshipping? Your god, or your forefathers? Religion should be a matter of personal faith, not familial obligation. My parents are devout Christians, and I love and respect them like none other, yet I cannot be a Christian for their sake. If I don't believe, I don't believe. I am still officially a member of the State Church, however, because I know it would pain my father to see me leave it. To me it's just a piece of paper anyway, and I have no need to demonstrate my actual beliefs.

Like several Muslim leaders today, then. Good job civilization isn't about survival of the fittest.

You seem to be the kind of person who is prepared to throw everything of proven value away just to look smart and enlightened. Not to me tho'.

This extreme liberalism is actually just about youth and being still naive. We all have been there once when we were younger.

But one day you'll remember this thread. Even Skybird sees his past (travels) in a different light now, or so he shared with us recently Developing a good degree of rational awareness and intuition often takes a lifetime and even then most people dont get it.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

No. There are absolutes in this world. And while it's rare to be 100% absolutely correct 100% of the time, there's nothing wrong with being 85% correct when arguing with someone who is 15% correct and 85% full of buba-meises.

And yes there is black and white. You must have a unique color blindness problem.

Au contraire, it is those who fail to see the full spectrum of colours on the scale who suffer from colour blindness. Nothing is either all good or all bad, or naturally people would flock to the all good. No culture in this world perceives itself as evil. And in fact, when a Muslim claims to be every bit as right as you, how am I as a third party supposed to tell who is right or who is wrong? The thing is, a Muslim doesn't judge himself by your criteria. Nor do you judge yourself by his. I can look at things from your point of view and say, "yes, you certainly have grievances". Or I could look at things from the Muslim's point of view and come to the same (but opposite) conclusion: "Yes, you certainly have grievances". Can you name me but one absolute, where both sides agree on the facts, but strangely still in conflict?

Or are you saying that they hate you for no good reason whatsoever? You guys are as pure as the driven snow? That is a bit shortsighted, and simply won't cut it. Of course you're going to perceive yourself as being at LEAST 85% correct if you only see things from your side, and refuse to see things from the other side.

You seem to think that Muslims are the scum of the earth, just like so many people have thought about Jews over the course of history. Were they right? Surely so many people can't be wrong, right?

But of course they can. Because there is nothing more dangerous than hate. Hate is blind, even more so than love, and hate begets hate. It is so easy to fuel hatred, because anything bad is readily believed about an object of hate - it takes a lot more to convince such a person of the truth of a positive rumour.


A rumour that bandits are ravaging the countryside must be repeated three times before it is believed. A rumour that a ruler is deficient does not need to be repeated that often.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Sixpack

You seem to be the kind of person who is prepared to throw everything of proven value away just to look smart and enlightened. Not to me tho'.

This extreme liberalism is actually just about youth and being still naive. We all have been there once when we were younger.

But one day you'll remember this thread. Even Skybird sees his past (travels) in a different light now, or so he shared with us recently Developing a good degree of rational awareness and intuition often takes a lifetime and even then most people dont get it.

You got it all wrong, I only discard what cannot be proven. Your assumptions do not match the "wisdom of the ages" that you claim to possess. I am old enough to realize that I know nothing. My days of eager idealism are long gone. But I am also old enough to discard passion for passion, and criticize everything I see. What I said above stands. If family decides a person's beliefs, the beliefs are not the person's own. And as such they are worthless.

[Sixpack]

What do you want for Norway ?

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Au contraire, it is those who fail to see the full spectrum of colours on the scale who suffer from colour blindness.

Maybe it's those that constantly advocate such moral equivalence jibberish that are the ones that don't see? Perhaps?

Nothing is either all good or all bad, or naturally people would flock to the all good.

Rhetoric. Human judgement is the barrier most of the time.

No culture in this world perceives itself as evil.

Your problem seems to be that you have zero foundations of truth. Well, bully for you!

And in fact, when a Muslim claims to be every bit as right as you, how am I as a third party supposed to tell who is right or who is wrong?

Pick you brains.

The thing is, a Muslim doesn't judge himself by your criteria. Nor do you judge yourself by his. I can look at things from your point of view and say, "yes, you certainly have grievances". Or I could look at things from the Muslim's point of view and come to the same (but opposite) conclusion: "Yes, you certainly have grievances". Can you name me but one absolute, where both sides agree on the facts, but strangely still in conflict?

Monotheism.

That was too easy.

Or are you saying that they hate you for no good reason whatsoever?

If someone has a personal vendetta or a bias against someone else and proclaims this to others as absolute truth when it simply is not so and others, in their faulty judgement "trust" this person's word, you have most of history's evils explained in a nutshell.

You guys are as pure as the driven snow?

Never said that. Read my prior comments about percentages again.

That is a bit shortsighted, and simply won't cut it. Of course you're going to perceive yourself as being at LEAST 85% correct if you only see things from your side, and refuse to see things from the other side.

This would explain your excuse for the Nazi SS. You see no right and no wrong, only different sides. Fortunately this doesn't cut in most of the world.

You seem to think that Muslims are the scum of the earth,

No. I do think their religion is, however. Here, too, I must stress that I am referring to their religion as preached and practiced according to what I have and am still learning are the original intentions of Mohamed's teachings, as being conveyed by G-d (Allah) as binding and mandatory laws and ways of life.

just like so many people have thought about Jews over the course of history. Were they right?

According to you, were they wrong? With your way of thinking, who knows anymore!!! Let's just not judge anything anymore and sit back while one half of the world annihilates the other half. We've got plenty of time!

Surely so many people can't be wrong, right?

Why not?

But of course they can. Because there is nothing more dangerous than hate.

Metaphorically, I will agree. There are so many dangerous things in life. I don't have time now to prioritize them. But fine, let's assume so.

Hate is blind, even more so than love, and hate begets hate. It is so easy to fuel hatred, because anything bad is readily believed about an object of hate - it takes a lot more to convince such a person of the truth of a positive rumour.

A rumour that bandits are ravaging the countryside must be repeated three times before it is believed. A rumour that a ruler is deficient does not need to be repeated that often.

I've lost your point here.

What if bandits really are ravaging the countryside?

And yes, hate begets hate. What if the initiator had never hated in the first place. You have totally mixed up cause and effect. This is one big booboo to make in life!

I would be very happy not to have to deal with other's hate and I would be very happy to ignore it, if I could afford to. Unfortunately, this has not been the case. Apparently, you're safe and cozy enough up there to afford the luxury of thinking otherwise.

But that may not last forever.

Must go now. Maybe more tomorrow night.

[The Avon Lady]

Just to leave you all with this last piece of food for thought:

Jihadism and denial.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Maybe it's those that constantly advocate such moral equivalence jibberish that are the ones that don't see? Perhaps?

Perhaps. I do not know that I am right, I can only draw conclusions based on what I think is right. This applies equally to you.

Rhetoric. Human judgement is the barrier most of the time.

Exactly! And is human judgement not what decides - no, creates good or bad? (Don't know why I'm asking you this, knowing you'll simply answer "no" )

Your problem seems to be that you have zero foundations of truth. Well, bully for you!

I have foundations for facts. Truth is different from one person to the next. Of course, depending on religion your views may differ, but the fact that different people have different convictions is proof of this.

Pick you brains.

Not an answer, I'm afraid.

Monotheism.

That was too easy.

What's so absolute about monotheism?

If someone has a personal vendetta or a bias against someone else and proclaims this to others as absolute truth when it simply is not so and others, in their faulty judgement "trust" this person's word, you have most of history's evils explained in a nutshell.

But what is the cause of this vendetta in the first place? Everything has a reason.

Never said that. Read my prior comments about percentages again.

Based on those percentages, you must be pretty darned clean.

This would explain your excuse for the Nazi SS. You see no right and no wrong, only different sides. Fortunately this doesn't cut in most of the world.

If you have read my posts you should have noted that I never defended the Nazi institution (apart from the smart uniforms) - I simply defended the individual's right to be judged on individual basis.

No. I do think their religion is, however. Here, too, I must stress that I am referring to their religion as preached and practiced according to what I have and am still learning are the original intentions of Mohamed's teachings, as being conveyed by G-d (Allah) as binding and mandatory laws and ways of life.

I see. And who teaches you from the Koran? If you are self taught you surely bring your own views into it, just like when I first read the Bible it was really just so I could use its quote to argue with Christians. I have since regained my respect for Christianity, though.

According to you, were they wrong? With your way of thinking, who knows anymore!!! Let's just not judge anything anymore and sit back while one half of the world annihilates the other half. We've got plenty of time!

They thought they were right. Just like I think I am right. Just like you think you are right. We are only right if we base our conclusions objectively on real facts, though, and that hardly ever happens. Facts are easily distorted here, ommitted there, and hence we draw our conclusions based on what we've got - which is scarcely the pinnacle of objectivity.

Why not?

So you're saying anti-Semitism over the ages was perfectly justified? Interesting. My point here, though, is that people don't think. Individuals think - people are cattle. Sure, we're all individuals, but we don't all specialize our critical thinking in the same areas. Just about everyone is capable of good, critical thinking in some subject - but no subject is the field of specialization for many.

Metaphorically, I will agree. There are so many dangerous things in life. I don't have time now to prioritize them. But fine, let's assume so.

Huzzah!

I've lost your point here.

What if bandits really are ravaging the countryside?

I was trying to make a point about the gullibility of people. I've said it time and time again, but does anyone ever listen? Nooo. What I'm actually saying above is, people believe what they want to believe. If you hate Bush, you're likely to believe any rumour stating how stupid and inept he is, and how everything he does is bad. You are then not likely to believe the rumours that he is actually doing good.

And yes, hate begets hate. What if the initiator had never hated in the first place. You have totally mixed up cause and effect. This is one big booboo to make in life!

What if the initiator had never hated in the first place? Why did he hate in the first place? But that's not the most important thing. The most important thing is not bickering about "who started it". The African Americans certainly didn't start, and yet as you all know, Martin Luther King had a dream.

But cause and effect is indeed important to understand one's opposition, and that's what I've been advocating all along. Why do they attack us? What is the cause of their hatred? What must we do to stop the HATE? Not the terrorists, mind you, but the HATE. The terrorists are but the symptom of a disease. You can treat the symptom all you want, but it's not going help you get well. You must cure the disease, and the disease is - summed up very, very shortly - hate. Forget revenge and pride if you want peace.

I would be very happy not to have to deal with other's hate and I would be very happy to ignore it, if I could afford to. Unfortunately, this has not been the case. Apparently, you're safe and cozy enough up there to afford the luxury of thinking otherwise.

Oh no, you must never ignore hate. That could have disastrous results. But if you meet a bull head-on you're going to end up with a head-ache. There are very efficient ways to combat hate, if you're willing to compromise. Never underestimate the power of forgiveness.

But that may not last forever.

Nothing ever does.

Must go now. Maybe more tomorrow night.

Just as well. I have less than four hours to clean up this pig-stye before my parents come to visit. I'm beginning to regret my decision to drop out of archaeology.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by The Avon Lady

Just to leave you all with this last piece of food for thought:

Jihadism and denial.

No more reading! This house isn't going to clean itself, you know. But that's next on my list of things to invent.

[Sixpack]

WTF ? Dubiya dines with muslim organizations in honor of the ramadan ?
The West is surely going insane.

[Hitman]

Did G-d reveal himself to humanity or not? If not, then your belief is (almost) unfounded.

So you are saying that only if God reveals himself are we able to know that He exists? That is in my opinion a very poor reasoning, Avon Lady...we humans have intelligence for something else than for building tools and improving our comfort

The existance of God can be demonstrated through evidence and reasoning at last to a 99%, the only 1% left being that he is invisible to us. We can't force him to make himself visible, but we can conclude through pure reasoning that God exists. There are more complex argumentss, but suffice to say for the purpose of this little discussion, that just the evidence of any effect having a cause is enough to prove that. Where is the cause to the visible effect the universe is?

What did G-d say? Any concrete obligations required of us mortals or are we just in G-d's big sandbox and have been told to play nice with each other?

There are natural laws common to all societies all over the history, ain't they a proof of what is expected from us in terms of behaviour?

Do you know any country, a single one, where killing, hurting or stealing a fellow citizen is not punished?

Pretending to use God as an excuse for imposing a certain vision/rules on earth is the most stupid thing the human mind can conceive. God will judge all of us individually according to all religions, and for what we have made ourselves, not for what we forced others to do. So if we force others to do something, where is their chance to proof their will to obbey God? Nonesense...