Israel... Why them???

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Sounds like a wise man

So you're defending death and destruction for profit, as long as the death and destruction befalls "them"? It is your prerogative to think so, but you can hardly take the moral high ground if you do.

[Kind Seas]

Originally Posted by August

HUMMMMMMMMMMM

Joel Chapter 3 read it please... that would be in the bible

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

So you're defending death and destruction for profit, as long as the death and destruction befalls "them"? It is your prerogative to think so, but you can hardly take the moral high ground if you do.

I just think you cant treat democracies and dictatorships with the same rules. When they decide to end the dark ages and start to live like civilized people we can treat them like one.

[caspofungin]

Really? And what's your definition of "civilized?"

[Happy Times]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

Really? And what's your definition of "civilized?"

Well lets be honest about it. What muslim country doesnt have large scale and repeated human rights issues? Does any western country have these issues on a same scale? And if you blame the poverty i think its only a result of their culture, not our fault

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Well lets be honest about it. What muslim country doesnt have large scale and repeated human rights issues? Does any western country have these issues on a same scale?

Turkey? Northern Ireland?

And if you blame the poverty i think its only a result of their culture, not our fault

Sure, because the West certainly has no history of exploiting 3rd world countries and causing humanitarian crisis :P

[caspofungin]

oh, i see -- civilization implies a decent record of human rights and lack of poverty. great. does that apply to the bastion of western civilization, the usa? i've never been to finland, but you should visit the us -- i can take you on a tour of downtown detroit, and you can tell all the poor people there how lucky they are to be civilized.

human rights issues and poverty are problems of a government -- a government that lacks leadership or the wiilingnes to take care of its people. that happens all over the world, not just in muslim countries, so to claim that "they" are "uncivilized" on that basis is a fallacious argument, devoid of logic.

let's take saudi arabia -- one of the countries with human rights issues. Specifically, the saudi monarchy uses their power with the courts to imprison any opponents to the regime, where they're tortured. this is the same saudi regime that's been propped up by the west since its inception in 1923.

re poverty -- what western civilized country doesn't have a sizeable portion of its population below the poverty line? Let's bring up saudi arabia again -- the ruling elite live in absolute luxury while part of the population has to make do in abject poverty. Again, the same regime that exists at the behest of the west. Plus, of all the dollars that are made from a barrel of oil, only a small fraction goes to the arab country where that oil was drilled -- the majority of profits go to the oil companies, a situation that the governments are happy to put up with. the quran states that the wealth of a country -- on the land, underneath it, or from the sea -- belongs equally to all the people of that country. but just like in every other major religion, people (ie the arab governments) are willing to ignore those parts that don't give them a benefit. And other people (ie you) seem willing to generalize from the actions of a few, despite what the majority thinks or does.

[Happy Times]

Turkey? Northern Ireland?

Your calling Turkey a Western country? :rotfl: Oh , your just asking.. No,its not. Norhern Ireland would be classified as a low scale civil war and i wouldnt count it here. But your really reaching even if i give you that one..Name one muslim country that doesnt have these problems? List might be shorter than that one

Sure, because the West certainly has no history of exploiting 3rd world countries and causing humanitarian crisis

How long is this record going to play? It seems that the 3rd world countries are cabable of generating these problems and crisis just fine even without us. Do you really think all is cause of colonization. Ever considered that culture might have something to do with how your society looks like?

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Happy Times

Your calling Turkey a Western country? :rotfl: Oh , your just asking.. No,its not. Norhern Ireland would be classified as a low scale civil war and i wouldnt count it here. But your really reaching even if i give you that one..Name one muslim country that doesnt have these problems? List might be shorter than that one

I listed Turkey as a Muslim country first, because that's the first thing you asked for. Then I listed Northern Ireland as a Western country second, because that's the second thing you asked for.

How long is this record going to play? It seems that the 3rd world countries are cabable of generating these problems and crisis just fine even without us. Do you really think all is cause of colonization. Ever considered that culture might have something to do with how your society looks like?

Would those countries manage to make those crisis' without us? Hard to tell, we haven't given them the chance. As for the initial reasons, the answers are found in history. The quickest way to sum it up would be to liken it to a time-old riddle:

If the crab and the octopus fought eachother, who would win?

The answer is the shark.

[Happy Times]

I listed Turkey as a Muslim country first, because that's the first thing you asked for. Then I listed Northern Ireland as a Western country second, because that's the second thing you asked for.

OK,sorry,getting tired Wouldnt compare the two personally.

Would those countries manage to make those crisis' without us? Hard to tell, we haven't given them the chance. As for the initial reasons, the answers are found in history. The quickest way to sum it up would be to liken it to a time-old riddle:

If the crab and the octopus fought eachother, who would win?

The answer is the shark.

Its nice that you have this hope for better. I just think that cultures sometimes are radically different and the end result is also very different. Looking back at history these different interests sometimes clash and i sense one behind the corner. Thats the human nature.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

Really? And what's your definition of "civilized?"

Universal Suffrage and Equal Protection Under the Law are big on my list of requirements...

[Damo1977]

Going back to the original question........Considering I have attacked the Jews in public and than got classified as a NAZI. Well basically it is easier to blame a minority for your problems, than to accept you have to improve yourself.
But in the Western world, since WW2, we have been 'told' not 'learnt' what happened to the Jewish religion and others and CONCENTRATED on that fact. This is what grates on me nerves, Yes it was evil but get over it, to put it bluntly it happens all the time.

"SUPPORT GWS" no not a typing error "SUPPORT GWS"

[caspofungin]

Originally Posted by TLAM Strike

Universal Suffrage and Equal Protection Under the Law are big on my list of requirements...

so the usa wouldn't count as civilized until 1964. bollocks. there's a difference between "western" and "civilized." Not exclusive terms, but not the same, either. so to claim that islamic countries are uncivilized because they don't conform to your own standards or conceits is misusing the term.

[TLAM Strike]

Originally Posted by caspofungin

so the usa wouldn't count as civilized until 1964. bollocks. there's a difference between "western" and "civilized." Not exclusive terms, but not the same, either. so to claim that islamic countries are uncivilized because they don't conform to your own standards or conceits is misusing the term.

No Equal Protection was granted in 1868 (although not enforced in many states, so those states were breaking the law) and Universal Suffrage in 1920. Yes my view of what is civilized is influenced by the fact that I’m from a western nation with all those crazy ideas like “rights� left over from the Greeks and Romans but subjugating an entire segment of your nations population by not allowing them to vote or drive doesn’t make that nation civilized. Don’t confuse Modernized with Civilized. Compare each nation to its peers and you will see, Yemen against UK? Pre-invasion Afghanistan against USA? Those places almost had no rule of law for crying out loud!

[caspofungin]

i'm not the one that's confused, here -- having lived in both eastern and western countries, i know the difference. "subjugating an entire segment of your nations population by not allowing them to vote" -- like the us pre1968, the point i was trying to make. that doesn't mean the us wasn't civilized or modern -- it was both, yet this inequity was allowed to continue.

"compare each nation to its peers" that's exactly what you aren't doing. you're viewing the world through the crystalline lens that living in a free, western democracy allows you to, making the world simple, black and white. Good for you, and the world would be a better place if it was all about rights and equality. but it isn't -- it's about power and leverage and keeping what you've grabbed for yourself. Arab countries are, politically, hundreds of years behind their western counterparts -- any arab with a modicum of sense will freely admit it. that doesn't excuse extrapolating that political difference to justify a claim that islam as a religion is backwards or uncivilized.

and your shining lights the greeks and romans didn't exactly have equal rights for all. yet again, people are using a fragment of history, out of context, to justify their hyperbole.