GRID CO-ORDS IN RADIO MESSAGES

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by bookworm_020

Women also serve on Australian Submarines as well as surface ships. :hmm:

Norway was the first to have a female submarine commander, though. Take that, Australian Navy!

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Kissaki

Furthermore, I don't care how hard you train - certain instincts can't be untrained, certainly not with any methods currently employed. Robot soldiers is Hollywood.

If I could keep my hands off my female coworkers at age 18 WITHOUT ANY MILITARY TRAINING, I'm sure any 18 year old can do the same WITH military training. If they can't, perhaps they shouldn't be in a situation where they have more serious responsibilities.

If you look at any species of mammals, you'll be able to observe the male's protective instincts of the female. That's a really big problem, because it causes men to be over-protective of women in combat, and take unnecessary risks.

Oh poor babies! If some men can't view a woman as a coworker, and if they can't switch off their base sexual urges while they are around women, then they need to see a doctor, because that is not normal. If what you were saying was true, then, like I said before, I would have been sexually assaulting women since the age of 15. Not only is your suggestion an insult to the military (since it suggests that the military is incapable of instilling discipline) but it is profoundly insulting to men. It shows a profound contempt for men - it suggests that men are controlled overwhelmingly by base animal instinct. On the contrary - we have brains that are able to control our passions. If we didn't, the world would be a very different place. Monogamy wouldn't exist for a start, and sexual abuse would be regarded as the norm.

All in all, if what you're saying is true, then armed forces are a lot more poorly trained than I could have imagined.

After having done 20years Service in 2 countries, I can tell you quite emphaticaly that mixed units are a waste of bloody time. It just dont work, caused more problems than it was suppose to solve. End of story.

[Beery]

I'm not sure what world some here are living on, but here on this Earth, many nations have mixed units. It does work, in practice, and has done for years - centuries even. The Russians beat the Germans in WWII while using women in all branches of the armed services. The ancient Britons used female warriors, as did the Zulu in the 19th century. The Scythians employed women as cavalry troops from the time of Ancient Greece until after the Roman Empire fell. The problem is that, today, the people of some countries appear so immature about sexual matters that they seem to think that men can't control themselves around women. I think these folks need to grow up and accept that men and women can control themselves, and that women can work perfectly well in a military organization as long as the men in such an organization are willing to act like grown ups rather than like spoilt children.

Historical references to women fighting -
Prehistory and the Ancient World
Ancient warrior queens included Vishpla, Aahhotep I, Zabibi, Samsi, Tomyris, Himoko, Jingo Kogo, Mavia, Saimei and Dihya al-Kahina. There are depictions of Hittite women warriors dating from 1300 BC. The Bible describes the Judge, Deborah, as a war leader and the Greeks had legends of the Amazons which may have been based upon Scythians or women from Turkey or Libya. Vietnamese rebels included Trung Trac, Trung Nhi, Tran Thi Doan, Phung Thi Chinh and Trieu Thi Trinh. Fa Mulan fought in the Chinese army.

Celtic and Roman
Roman gladiatorial shows included "women of rank" in 63 AD. There was also a female chariot fighter competing against men. Women gladiators were described again in 88 AD. Women were members of the venatores, (gladiators who fought wild animals in the Roman arena). Emperor Alexander Severus issued an edict prohibiting women combatants in the arena in 200 AD.
A display of captured enemies in the 3rd Century included several women warriors.

Legendary Celtic women warriors included Medb (Maeve) of Ireland, Aife (Aoife) of Alba (Scotland), and Queen Scathach of Skye.
The Romans in Britain fought against Queen Boadicea (or Bodiecia, Bouddica, Voadica, Voada) of the Iceni in 61AD, but they were allies to Queen Cartimandua of the Briganties in a war against her consort in 43AD.

Vikings and Saxons
An English Saxon Princess led an invasion of Jutland in the 6th Century. In the 8th Century Queen Aethelburgh destroyed Taunton. In the 9th Century Queen Thyra of Denmark led her army against the Germans.
In the 10th Century Aethelflaed, Lady of Mercia led troops against the Vikings and Olga of Russia ended a revolt in which her husband had died.

The Viking Sagas and Saxo Grammaticus' "History of the Danes" mention many warrior women. Hetha, Visna and Vebiorg led companies of the Danish army. Sela and Alvid were pirates. Stikla ran away from home to become a warrior. Rusilla fought against her brother for the throne. Gurith took part in a battle to help her son. Freydis Eiriksdottir, Auðr and Þórdis all used weapons against their enemies.

11th Century
Aristocratic ladies who led troops in seige and battle included Emma Countess of Norfolk, Matilda Countess of Tuscany (and her mother), Sichelgaita Princess of Lombardy, Urraca Queen of Aragon, and Teresa of Portugal.
Matilda of Ramsbury (mistress of the Bishop of Salisbury) held the Bishop's Castle in his absence.

12th Century
Aristocratic ladies who led troops in seige and battle included Alrude Countess of Bertinoro, Eleanor of Castile, Queen Urraca of Aragon, Marguerite de Provence, Florine of Denmark and Berengaria of Navarre, Queen Tamara of Georgia and the Empress Maud (also known as Matilda, Empress of Germany, Countess of Anjou, Domina Anglorum, Lady of the English, Matilda Augusta and Matilda the Good)
Maude de Valerie was a Welsh revolutionary.
Women took part in the Crusades in the armies of Emperor Conrad and William Count of Poitiers in spite of a papal bull forbidding them to do so.

13th Century
Nicola de la Haye, daughter of the castellan of Lincoln defended the town against several raids and was made sheriff of Lincolnshire in 1216.
Jeanne of Navarre led her army against that of the Count de Bar.
Ladies were admitted to the Chivalric Order of the Dragon, The Order of St Anthony in Hainault and the Order of the Garter.

14th Century:
Isobel MacDuff Countess of Buchan, Jeanne de Danpierre Countess de Montfort (also known as Jane, Countess of Montfort), Isabelle of England, Christian Lady Bruce, Marjory Bruce, Mary Bruce, Phillipa of Hainault, Lady Agnes Randolph (also known as Black Agnes), Agnes Hotot of Dudley, Adelaide Ponthiey, Jeanne de Belleville, Margaret of Denmark
Ladies were admitted to the Chivalric Order of the Dragon, The Order of St Anthony in Hainault and the Order of the Garter.

15th Century
Margaret of Denmark, Jacqueline of Bavaria (Countess of Holland, Hainault and Zealand), Jehanne la Pucelle (better known as Joan of Arc), Isabella of Lorraine, Maire o Ciaragain, Isabella I of Castile. The Bridport muster roll (a list of ordinary citizens called up for a battle) of 1457 lists Alis Gare, Alis Hammel, Sally Pens, "Condefer Wife" and Margaret Athyn, three of these women brought their own weapons and armour with them.
Ladies were admitted to the Chivalric Order of the Dragon, The Order of St Anthony in Hainault and the Order of the Garter.

16th Century
Graine Ni Maille (also known as Grace O'Malley) was an Irish pirate. A group of 350 girls defended fortifications in Paris. Ameliane du Puget led a troop of women in Marseilles. Beatriz de Pardes and María de Estrada fought with the Conquistadors in the New World. Lilliard led the Scots into battle against the English. Isabella I of Castile led her army. Marguerite Delaye and Captain Mary Ambree fought in battles. Explorers in South America reported seeing native women leading warbands.

17th Century
Kit Cavanagh (also known as "Mother Ross") started her military career disguised as a man, but later fought open;y as a woman soldier. Mme de Saint Baslemont de Neuville and La Maupin, as well as two unnamed aristocratic sisters fought duels. Other notable women included Lady Ann Cummingham, Blanche the Countess of Arundel, Brilliana the Countess of Harley, Alyona of Russia, Anne Chamberlyne and Anne Marie Louise d'Orleans Montpensier.
During the English Civil War ordinary women frequently reloaded guns, as well as carrying powder and bullets to the front during battles. The Scots army which marched on Newcastle in 1644 is reported to have included women regular soldiers.

18th Century
Women involved in the Jacobite Rising in Scotland in 1745-6 included Jean (Jenny) Cameron, Lady Anne Macintosh, Lady Margaret Oglivy, Margaret Murray and Lady Lude.
Women soldiers included Ann Mills, Phoebe Hessel, Virginie Ghesquiere, Angelique Brulon, Margaret Catchpole, Olympe de Gouges, Rose Lacombe, Theroigne de Mericourt, Mademoiselle de la Rochefoucalt, Jemima Warner and Hannah Snell
Duellists included Mademoiselle La Maupin, Mademoiselle de Guignes, Mademoiselle d'Aiguillon, Mademoiselle Leverrier, Lady Almeria Braddock, Mrs Elphinstone, Comptesse de Polignac and Marquise de Nesle.
Catherine the Great of Russia led her army in several campaigns.

19th Century:
Women soldiers and rebels included Augustina the "Maid of Saragossa", Marie Schellinck, Gertrudis Bocanegra, Elizabeth Hatzler, Dr "James" Barry, Mary Ann Riley, Ann Hopping, Jane Townshend, Louisa Battistati, Clemence Louise Michel, Sylvia Mariotti.
Duels were fought by many women including Princess Pauline Metternich, Countess Kilmannsegg, Lady Almeria Braddock and a Mrs Elphinstone.

20th Century:
Increasingly accurate records and improved communications mean that many more women are recorded as regular troops, pilots, rebels, partisans, martial artists etc.

Warrior Women in Scotland
These include the Celts, Aife of Alba and Scathach of Skye.
Isabelle of England: (A.D. 1285?-1313?) took up arms against her husband and she was forced to flee to Scotland by Edward III.
In 1297 the Countess of Ross led her own troops during William Wallace and Andrew de Moray's battles with the English.
Isobel MacDuff, Countess of Buchan (1296-1358) fought for Robert de Bruce.
Christian, Lady Bruce defended Kildrummy Castle from the English during the Wars of Independence.
During the same war, the widow of David of Strathbogie defended the island fortress of Lochindorb against three thousand Scots.
Lady Agnes Randolph (1300?-1369?), known as Black Agnes, fought for de Bruce. In 1334, she successfully held her castle at Dunbar against the besieging forces of England's earl of Salisbury for over five months.
Phillipa of Hainault, Queen of Edward III, led twelve thousand soldiers against invading Scots in 1346 and captured their king, David Bruce.
In 1545, Lilliard led the Scots at the Battle of Ancrum.
The Scots army which marched on Newcastle in 1644 during the English Civil War is reported to have included women regular soldiers.
Jean (Jenny) Cameron, Lady Anne Macintosh, Lady Margaret Oglivy, Margaret Murray and Lady Lude were all involved in the Jacobite Rising in Scotland in 1745-6.

In short, women fought in the past. If they could do it then, they can do it now. If men in the armed forces can't deal with that (diddums!), then standards of either training or behaviour in the military must have slipped badly. Either that, or the military is recruiting men who lack the most basic self-control and/or self-respect.

[kanderstag]

Jah well I remember being 19-23. No way would I be 'professional' enough to not let my willy do some thinking. I imagine the submariners make good use of 'don't ask, don't tell'. Imagine being the lucky seaman inside an all-female sub! Woot.

Let me take a wild bloody stab in the dark here beery, 1000-1 say u aint ever seen 1 days service in your life. Because IF u ever had you would know of what we speak. Its not just the Males FFS, its also the Nonmales (aint allowed to call em females u see). Front lumped soldiers are a bloody pain in the butt.

Hell I can count on 1 hand, how many over the years have be worth while. Its PC gone mad and any digger worth his salt will tell u that.

I cant remember the amount of times I have heard em say things like :

"Do I realy have to fire that thing"

"Ohh I cant lift that I'll crack my nail's can you lift it for me" refering to ammo box's whilst batting eyelids at some bloke.

"You call this a Toilet !!!! I cant use that." referance a field dunny

"Ohh I'm here to find myself a hubby" when asked why the hell did they sign up.

"My packs to heavy can carry it pls" only to find out latter ½ the damn local cosmetic shop is in there.

I can go on and on and on. These are just a FEW of the things we have had to put up with. The logistical nightmare they create with "personal sanitary items" we have to carry in the field store. Or when u have a 10 man section with 1 Nonmale in it. she has to bivawack up by herself, cant share with males, not allowed. So now you have a weak spot in your defence perimeter. This is not our doing but the higher up brass. Get a GRIP ppl, this is the Defence Force, your here to kill ppl.

Now days I will have nothing to do with em, the term WOFTAM always springs to mind.

[The Avon Lady]

Originally Posted by Cdr Gibs

Front lumped soldiers are a bloody pain in the butt.

What about top-lumped ones?

Otherwise, I somewhat agree with you opinion, though not with your tone. I'm sure there are plenty of women soldiers who don't give a damn about their nails or the latrines.

But I defintely disagree with Beery. No one is arguing that women have never and can never fight. No one is saying that men are "controlled overwhelmingly by base animal instinct".

However, that doesn't mean that such instincts can always be consciously or subconsciously subdued by everyone, even by a great soldier. Very few make it to the level of a robot. And it should be the job of the military to have to robotize soldiers more than is necessary.

Avon

I never said they cant do it. I'm just saying that even tho the whole concept in an ideal world Should work, this aint an ideal world an it Dont work.

As for my tone - yes I was annoyed, more with armchair generals who dont have a bloody clue.

Ohh and the Front lumped bit, its better than calling them Nonmales in my view. Least this way we/I am giving them a defined form. Nothing wrong with a good bit of form

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by Beery

If I could keep my hands off my female coworkers at age 18 WITHOUT ANY MILITARY TRAINING, I'm sure any 18 year old can do the same WITH military training. If they can't, perhaps they shouldn't be in a situation where they have more serious responsibilities.

Oh poor babies! If some men can't view a woman as a coworker, and if they can't switch off their base sexual urges while they are around women, then they need to see a doctor, because that is not normal. If what you were saying was true, then, like I said before, I would have been sexually assaulting women since the age of 15. Not only is your suggestion an insult to the military (since it suggests that the military is incapable of instilling discipline) but it is profoundly insulting to men. It shows a profound contempt for men - it suggests that men are controlled overwhelmingly by base animal instinct. On the contrary - we have brains that are able to control our passions. If we didn't, the world would be a very different place. Monogamy wouldn't exist for a start, and sexual abuse would be regarded as the norm.

All in all, if what you're saying is true, then armed forces are a lot more poorly trained than I could have imagined.

The problem with your argument is that you view them as "co-workers", which simply doesn't cut it. The military is not a job (it's an adventure! Sorry, couldn't resist :P ), it's duty and bloody sacrifice. It's not like you can go home at the end of the day, and the biggest enemy you'll ever see is paperwork. War is 80% waiting (filled with pointless duties), which creates boredom. The remaining 20% contains the combat bit (perhaps 5-10%), which causes great stress to the human mind, shellshock and the like.

There is a much greater need in the military to create a vent for their stress, because war-nerves can break down the strongest trooper. You run the risk of losing life and limb, and perhaps you see your friends lose life and limb. You just don't have that in blue-collar jobs. As a consequence, the military is the world's biggest kindergarten. Soldiers need relief, and find it through painting the town red - which usually include considerable quantities of alcohol and/or drugs. When you think of the levels of stress they go through combined with their youth, this shouldn't be a surprise.

Furthermore, in a regular job, you're not prevented in any way to pursue romantic relationships on your own time. A front-line soldier has no own time, except when on leave. But that's not enough. You can't train away someone's need for a companion any more than you can train away their need to eat or drink.

[frogdog]

For all the wonderful mods Beery turns out....I would suggest he might need to get out of the classroom, theory and abstractions and observe human beings and their interactions in real life. Military training IS professional....but it cannot perform the impossible...just as the law cannot ensure equality and justice. I have no desire (or ability) to give birth even if the laws of equality might suggest that I should be able to. Women should not serve on subs...even if, in a vacuum, they could probably perform well. Why in the world...purely for "equality" sake, would you jeapordize a mission and/or war outcome and potentially waste human life needlessly? That, Berry, is the professionalism the military teaches....not how to supress mating urges.
As for being an 18 year old male and not lusting after little Suzie in the next cubicle or whatever....thats your problem. It is NOT! the problem of an 18 year old sailor I can assure you.
Now lets (both sexes) save these discussions for a philosophy forum and enjoy the game to its fullest

[kanderstag]

I'd more buy the argument that Suzie doesn't have the physical ability to hump an 80 pound ruck than listen to some old fart drone on about women not being fit for combat. I think it's more a threat to their fragile male ego that some woman/girl is giving them orders or disciplining them. Now maybe you good-ol'-boyz don't hang around fire-breathing women because you're view of them is in pink skirts mopping floors and tending babies, but they do exist.
With these kinds of mindsets, it's no wonder sexual harassment is so pervasive in the military.

[Kissaki]

Originally Posted by kanderstag

I'd more buy the argument that Suzie doesn't have the physical ability to hump an 80 pound ruck than listen to some old fart drone on about women not being fit for combat. I think it's more a threat to their fragile male ego that some woman/girl is giving them orders or disciplining them. Now maybe you good-ol'-boyz don't hang around fire-breathing women because you're view of them is in pink skirts mopping floors and tending babies, but they do exist.
With these kinds of mindsets, it's no wonder sexual harassment is so pervasive in the military.

I agree, I'd never say that women are unfit for combat. But on the green field (ie., where army grunts play), I think the guys do a better job. A friend of mine told me that when the two girls in his platoon couldn't carry their 40 kg. gear on account of having menstrual cramps (and women who stick together tend to synchronize menstrual cycles), the guys had to carry that extra load. The girls were not popular as a result.

There are more branches than infantry, though, and they might be an excellent choice for the Air Force, for example. As I understand it, they have a higher G-force tolerance than men from having shorter distance between the heart and brain - and having a stronger heart, too. Women's hearts are designed to be able to take the strains of child birth, and as such are stronger and more flexible.

In the Navy I'm sure they can carry their own weight, even if our steward's mate had weaseled her way out from deck hand and mine duties (I was on a minelayer), and sadly only added to the image that "women only join the service to get laid". Then, of course, there's the good ol' maritime traditions that women aboard ships are bad luck :P

You're also not supposed to whistle, have bikes or umbrellas aboard, or say "horse". Well, we had several bikes on board, including a motorcycle at one point. I also observed an umbrella on the first mine deck once, and the most frequently used curse was, well, um... a somewhat cruder name for a stallion's appendage :hmm: I remember being told off for whistling on the bridge, but that was probably more because of the annoyance factor than the superstition that it summons the storm.

Women are great for motivation during training, though. If you run past a pretty girl, you don't choose that moment to slow down to catch some wind. And in fact, I feel that my Iaido instructor (a veteran of the French Foreign Legion) only liked to have girls in his class for that very reason: it made us guys work harder. But this mentality spells disaster on the battlefield, because men focus too much on their sisters in arms compared with their brothers in arms. It's not just some indoctrined gentleman's mentality, but something deeply primal. A friend of mine made the following observation on his farm, and I think it demonstrates some pretty universal rules:

A hen, to protect her chicks, stood her ground when the rooster approached, and managed to chase him off. Another time, though, the cat approached, and the rooster stood his ground and chased the cat off while the hen rushed her chicks to safety. And indeed, regardless of culture men feel a need to be protective over women. I don't care if the woman can carry her own weight, even if she's better at it than the men - that need to protect is there all the same. That's why an all-man outfit, or an all-woman outfit for that matter, is better than a mixed outfit. Fewer variables, fewer complications.

[Col7777]

So what WAS the subject of this thread, oh yeah Co-ords or something?

[coronas]

Please,please, please! Folow the thread! Only the co-ords! In action we are only comrades! Everybody make the work ....man or woman

[frogdog]

Women have their (rightful) place in the military. Just not in the combat (kill) zone. Never have...never will... (Joan of Arc...Wonder Woman) not withstanding. Generalization...but 100% valid in practical terms. FROGDOG