I like the new patch - Page 3

LuftWolf · 10-30-05, 03:27 PM

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Well, I found the obvious answer... we can just change the mass of the submarines so they act more like real subs in the water.

Currently, the masses in the database are around what the actual masses of the subs are in RL. Evidently, the engine itself isn't coded so that this would be enough by itself to provide correct performance, perhaps to make it easier for submerged and surface/air objects to cooexist in the same space, without having drastically different physics for the water and the air. That is, it's "ok" for submerged objects to behave as if they are in the air (with limited drag), but definately not ok for air platforms to perform as if they are in the water.

So, it looks like the answer is to increase the mass of the subs to make the performance more realistic. Obviously, this would be a HUGE workaround of the physics engine, and would require *a lot* of testing under different conditions to get right, but it is definately possible. This would change the acceleration, deceleration, and the turning performance of the subs as well. This last one, the turning, may not work out right, so as I said, we have to look at it very closely.

LuftWolf · 10-30-05, 03:32 PM

Well, if I set the mass of the SW to 30,000 tons, it takes about 2 minutes to get up to 38kts (our max speed for the SW in the mod) and about another two minutes to get back down to 3kts.

Is that good enough for the critics?

Amizaur · 10-30-05, 04:18 PM

Unfortunately we can't change acceleration by database editing. Many people tried (including, jsteed, Ludger and me) and failed.
Of course would be wonderfull if you succeeded

but don't be too optimistic. Months ago I tried to increase the weight already...
Results are... well, make Seawolf 10x heavier, take it to 2000ft, speed up to 35-40kts and make emergency surface.

That's why I abandoned this idea :-). IIRC heavier sub maneuvered slower too, which is unacceptable as many people said that subs maneuver little slower than in real life already.

And... Luftwolf, I think you know that there is no need to change acceleration now ?

Boomer, take your copy of DW, and measure what time it takes a Kilo Im to accelerate to 18kts. Then take new 1.02 demo and measure the same. Then stop complaining as I did :P

LuftWolf · 10-30-05, 04:20 PM

Well, I'm impatient!

In regards to the FFG turning issue, I'm not sure there is much we can do about that without making the FFG a dragster as well... the FFG's are already about to do a donut with the diameter of the circle being basically a boat length and a half.

Is an FFG really able to do that at 23 kts??? :hmm:

LuftWolf · 10-30-05, 04:25 PM

Quote:

well, make Seawolf 10x heavier, take it to 2000ft, speed up to 35-40kts and make emergency surface.

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

LOL, that's funny as hell!!!

Well, ok guys, we can't do that so easily.

And it seems SO simple.

JoGary(sco) · 10-30-05, 11:16 PM

yes i have tried the pathced Demo. I am pretty sure the mines and subroc are still same. I noticed a few changes to the subroc database. They have had Visual and Pasive SL removed. not sure why or what that will mean. Also noticed that some of the Thrusts have bben removed from playable subs, anyone know what they do? The kilo is only one still to have them.
When Amizuar first started on the moblile mines doctrin he manages to get them working with doctrin fixes alone. I still have copies of them on my HD. They wherent perfect but way better than what we have.
Yeh i agree that problems that can be fixed in Database and with new Doctrin ar not really a game bug but it still doesnt help us who cant or dont want to use the Mods. I love what u guys have done with the LWAMI Mod but for someone like myself who now plays in a Virtual Fleet it no good. We who are in virtual fleets need to rely on SC to fix doctrin and Databese when needed.
Anyhow, they could have fixed the Subroc with just changing a few lines. I may be missing somthing but i fail to see what.

JoGary(sco) · 10-30-05, 11:21 PM

Seem that whenever someone thinks of somthing Amizaur has already been there

Quote:

Of course would be wonderfull if you succeeded but don't be too optimistic. Months ago I tried to increase the weight already...
Results are... well, make Seawolf 10x heavier, take it to 2000ft, speed up to 35-40kts and make emergency surface. That's why I abandoned this idea :-). IIRC heavier sub maneuvered slower too, which is unacceptable as many people said that subs maneuver little slower than in real life already.

Driftwood · 10-31-05, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoGary(sco)

Yeh i agree that problems that can be fixed in Database and with new Doctrin ar not really a game bug but it still doesnt help us who cant or dont want to use the Mods. I love what u guys have done with the LWAMI Mod but for someone like myself who now plays in a Virtual Fleet it no good. We who are in virtual fleets need to rely on SC to fix doctrin and Databese when needed.
Anyhow, they could have fixed the Subroc with just changing a few lines. I may be missing somthing but i fail to see what.

JG, It's my belief that if we can "make our case" (which will certainly require the services of our resident attorney

and he knows who he is) we may be able to institute the use of the mod in our fleet. It may be a long shot since organizations in general can be resistant to change but it's worth a try!

dw

Molon Labe · 10-31-05, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrankine

Quote:

Originally Posted by JoGary(sco)

Yeh i agree that problems that can be fixed in Database and with new Doctrin ar not really a game bug but it still doesnt help us who cant or dont want to use the Mods. I love what u guys have done with the LWAMI Mod but for someone like myself who now plays in a Virtual Fleet it no good. We who are in virtual fleets need to rely on SC to fix doctrin and Databese when needed.
Anyhow, they could have fixed the Subroc with just changing a few lines. I may be missing somthing but i fail to see what.

JG, It's my belief that if we can "make our case" (which will certainly require the services of our resident attorney

and he knows who he is) we may be able to institute the use of the mod in our fleet. It may be a long shot since organizations in general can be resistant to change but it's worth a try!

dw

LOL, I doubt it. I'd be all in favor of approving the mod for gameplay, but considering that SW turned down SCX IIc I don't see them adopting LW/Ami.

Driftwood · 10-31-05, 10:22 AM

You always miss 100% of the shots you never take.

Molon Labe · 10-31-05, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lrankine

You always miss 100% of the shots you never take.

EDIT: Ok, no, Fish started the discussion on the SW forums. But I jumped on it damn quickly!

I don't mind trying, I'm just not optimistic.

Bellman · 10-31-05, 11:55 AM

ML

Quote:

I don't mind trying, I'm just not optimistic

Knowing SWs- you are a 'realist'

Good luck with your advocacy Fish et al never moved them beyond 1.8 in SC.

goldorak · 10-31-05, 12:00 PM

What are the virtual fleets out there that use the LW mod ?
Sw doesn't, Naval Command HQ doesn't at least that is what is written on their main page, what about the other fleets ?

Molon Labe · 10-31-05, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bellman

ML

Quote:

I don't mind trying, I'm just not optimistic

Knowing SWs- you are a 'realist'

Good luck with your advocacy Fish et al never moved them beyond 1.8 in SC.

And they really lost out on it. SCX IIc was top-notch, I'm not sure how I ever managed to play SC without it!

Amizaur · 10-31-05, 01:34 PM

Me too. I have played SC 1.8 for... one day

, next day I found and upgraded it to SCX2c :P

10-30-05, 03:27 PM	#31
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Well, I found the obvious answer... we can just change the mass of the submarines so they act more like real subs in the water. Currently, the masses in the database are around what the actual masses of the subs are in RL. Evidently, the engine itself isn't coded so that this would be enough by itself to provide correct performance, perhaps to make it easier for submerged and surface/air objects to cooexist in the same space, without having drastically different physics for the water and the air. That is, it's "ok" for submerged objects to behave as if they are in the air (with limited drag), but definately not ok for air platforms to perform as if they are in the water. So, it looks like the answer is to increase the mass of the subs to make the performance more realistic. Obviously, this would be a HUGE workaround of the physics engine, and would require a lot of testing under different conditions to get right, but it is definately possible. This would change the acceleration, deceleration, and the turning performance of the subs as well. This last one, the turning, may not work out right, so as I said, we have to look at it very closely. __________________ LW

10-30-05, 03:32 PM	#32
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Well, if I set the mass of the SW to 30,000 tons, it takes about 2 minutes to get up to 38kts (our max speed for the SW in the mod) and about another two minutes to get back down to 3kts. Is that good enough for the critics? __________________ LW

10-30-05, 04:20 PM	#34
LuftWolf Ocean Warrior Join Date: May 2005 Location: Free New York Posts: 3,167 Downloads: 2 Uploads: 0	Well, I'm impatient! In regards to the FFG turning issue, I'm not sure there is much we can do about that without making the FFG a dragster as well... the FFG's are already about to do a donut with the diameter of the circle being basically a boat length and a half. Is an FFG really able to do that at 23 kts??? :hmm: __________________ LW

10-30-05, 11:16 PM	#36
JoGary(sco) A-ganger Join Date: May 2005 Location: Loch lomand, Scotland Posts: 71 Downloads: 10 Uploads: 0	yes i have tried the pathced Demo. I am pretty sure the mines and subroc are still same. I noticed a few changes to the subroc database. They have had Visual and Pasive SL removed. not sure why or what that will mean. Also noticed that some of the Thrusts have bben removed from playable subs, anyone know what they do? The kilo is only one still to have them. When Amizuar first started on the moblile mines doctrin he manages to get them working with doctrin fixes alone. I still have copies of them on my HD. They wherent perfect but way better than what we have. Yeh i agree that problems that can be fixed in Database and with new Doctrin ar not really a game bug but it still doesnt help us who cant or dont want to use the Mods. I love what u guys have done with the LWAMI Mod but for someone like myself who now plays in a Virtual Fleet it no good. We who are in virtual fleets need to rely on SC to fix doctrin and Databese when needed. Anyhow, they could have fixed the Subroc with just changing a few lines. I may be missing somthing but i fail to see what. __________________ Joseph,Gary Winters jgw28@blueyonder.co.uk ICQ : 259-346-534 http://seawolves.org

10-31-05, 10:22 AM	#40
Driftwood Chief Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Western NC Posts: 325 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	You always miss 100% of the shots you never take. __________________ Retired US Army Paratrooper Virtual Sub Skipper

10-30-05, 04:18 PM	#33
Amizaur Sonar Guy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poland Posts: 398 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Unfortunately we can't change acceleration by database editing. Many people tried (including, jsteed, Ludger and me) and failed. Of course would be wonderfull if you succeeded but don't be too optimistic. Months ago I tried to increase the weight already... Results are... well, make Seawolf 10x heavier, take it to 2000ft, speed up to 35-40kts and make emergency surface. That's why I abandoned this idea :-). IIRC heavier sub maneuvered slower too, which is unacceptable as many people said that subs maneuver little slower than in real life already. And... Luftwolf, I think you know that there is no need to change acceleration now ? Boomer, take your copy of DW, and measure what time it takes a Kilo Im to accelerate to 18kts. Then take new 1.02 demo and measure the same. Then stop complaining as I did :P

10-31-05, 12:00 PM	#43
goldorak Admiral Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 2,320 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	What are the virtual fleets out there that use the LW mod ? Sw doesn't, Naval Command HQ doesn't at least that is what is written on their main page, what about the other fleets ?

10-31-05, 01:34 PM	#45
Amizaur Sonar Guy Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: Poland Posts: 398 Downloads: 0 Uploads: 0	Me too. I have played SC 1.8 for... one day , next day I found and upgraded it to SCX2c :P