Something to whet your knifes with

[mog]

Originally Posted by Neal Stevens

What a load of horsesh*t

What else is going to make people realise that they don't need a car that is, as the Simpsons so beautifully put it: 12 yards long, 2 lanes wide, 65 tonnes of American pride?

Higher oil prices cause automotive manufacturers to make more fuel efficient cars. This is why Toyota's hybrid fuel/electric Prius is in such high demand, with 100,000 being shipped to the US this year. The other car companies are scrambling to catch up, and they now expect about 20 new hybrid models to come onto the market by 2007.

[August]

Originally Posted by mog

What else is going to make people realise that they don't need a car that is, as the Simpsons so beautifully put it: 12 yards long, 2 lanes wide, 65 tonnes of American pride?

There is considerable variation in peoples transportation needs. A one (small) size fits all solution would not be preferable.

[Abraham]

Ha, ha. Onkel Neal has been in Europe. Now he has some first hand knowledge of European bad habits... ('thoug I don't smoke!).

While Skybird has made some sensible remarks, his conclusions are wrong.
The reality is that Europe and the U.S.A. are two highly develloped economies with different approaches to taxing of energy. Both have a history as great polluters and both are working on ecological measures and cost-efficiency in energy consumption. Europe could be ahead in this field, which I really don't know, but if so, it's only a matter of small differences. Those differences are certainly is not contrasting enough to bring up the well known European hypocrisy and portray the U.S. as The Great Polluter of The World and Europe as lilly white...
Edited

[Skybird]

"In reality". If abrahams says so, it already is a contradiction in itself. He means: his reality.

Make your own conclusions if it really can be like Abraham's unbiased and competent remarks tries to make you believe.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/env_co2_emi

http://cdiac.esd.ornl.gov/trends/emis/top2002.tot (from: http://gcmd.nasa.gov/records/GCMD_CD...SS_MODERN.html )

Look at these wellknown data with a background of nation'S different economy sizes and production efficiencies ( latter index led by europe for heav industry, led by america for science, hitech, space tech, computer, military production, controlling global cash flow patterns and influencing financial markets), different population sizes, and different energy consummation habits, I once red a summary of this book on industrial efficiency: http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item...ype=2&tid=3515

Use Google to learn about efficiency of energy production and distribution in nations, and you see that especially in the energy sector the Us is having substantial problems and the gap between europe and the US is big, not small. also, the european distribution network for electricity, oil and earth gas is simply superior to the american design that did not got modernized since a too long time for wishes to spare the needed investments. the many blackouts in american states, especially California, that were caused by inadequate supply systems and too excessive privatization speak evidence. When was the last time europe was effected by a majopr blackout not caused by heavy weather of any kind?

It comes down to this (and I have red quite some material on this over the years). Compared to it'S industry's size the US is a far greater polluter than would be needed and if adopting standards as they are valid in Germany or Denmark, for example. If comparing nations by means per head of it's population, it is very much off and away concerning energy consumation, pollution by CO2 and CO emissions, and general ressource consummation. In other words: the average American consumes far more gasoline, electrical energy, and material ressources (to make products of them) than the average European.

UN-sites hold plenty of statistics (comparisons between nations) on these things. Needs some time to search for them.

America is leading in many scientifc fields, computer tech, space tech, military goods (which all falls together, somehow), but it's heavy industry is vulnerable and still basing on very old structures and production methods for the most. The steel war some years ago was a very clear illustration of that, but it'S not only about steel. Europe does not lead in all heavy industry fields, in fact it doesn'T, because leadership many of these sectors already have travelled to the Far East. That the US is the biggest polluter in the world (CO2, CO, and some studies even say Methan (due to the massive artificial agriculture, intense stock-farming and Rice in special), while others point to the Far East in this regard (Rice) ) is because it so massively depends on old, aged production methods in it's energy and heavy industry sector. If it would modernize in these sectors it would cut jobs (an adaptation whole europe already went through, that'S why american steel cannot compete with european steel and thus Bush'S attempt to protect steel market at all cost), would lower subsidies (as it did throughout europe), and would lower emissions in general. There hase been emmission reduction concerning other polluting factors, up to 50% since the fifties (sulphur-based, and others), but these are not unique for America, but have been dumped in all Western world to comparable degree.

How someone who -judging by his lightweight remakrs - obviously does not know too much about this can nevertheless conclude that if there are differences between america and Europe they nevertheless cannot be big, remains a mystery. New in the program: "Abraham's world". And if the European hypocrisy is "well-known", than surely Abraham'S tendency to twist and distort or ignore facts until they match his views is as well-known by now, too.

I'll be off to Dortmund in less than an hour. Over the weekend you all will need to play alone. Behave and don't watch too much TV.

[Onkel Neal]

Originally Posted by Skybird

"In reality". If abrahams says so, it already is a contradiction in itself. He means: his reality.

Make your own conclusions if it really can be like Abraham's unbiased and competent remarks tries to make you believe.

Well, you could insert "Skybird" in place of "Abraham" and get a clear picture of what I am thinking when I read 50% of your posts, mate.

"In reality". If Skybird says so, it already is a contradiction in itself. He means: his reality.

Make your own conclusions if it really can be like Skybird's unbiased and competent remarks tries to make you believe.

How someone who -judging by his lightweight remakrs - obviously does not know too much about this can nevertheless conclude that if there are differences between america and Europe they nevertheless cannot be big, remains a mystery. New in the program: "Abraham's world". And if the European hypocrisy is "well-known", than surely Abraham'S tendency to twist and distort or ignore facts until they match his views is as well-known by now, too.

Tsk, not nice

the average American consumes far more gasoline, electrical energy, and material ressources (to make products of them) than the average European.

Yes, true but part of that also can be attributed to the size of the nation and climate. People in the southern US and Texas use a lot of electricity to keep their homes below 38 degrees in the summer. Come stay in Houston for a couple months in the summer without electrictity, you'll lose all your feathers. I bet if the European govts dropped their taxes on gas, many would opt for larger cars.

Now, one may think I oppose your viewpoint 100% but actually I am inclined to agree with some of it. I do favor smart environmental management and resource conservatism. I drive a small (by US standards) car with only a 2.7L engine, I keep the air conditioner set at 80F in the summer. My main complaint is (as I have said in the past) you only know one song and you like to sing it over and over. And it wears on one.

I'll be off to Dortmund in less than an hour. Over the weekend you all will need to play alone. Behave and don't watch too much TV.

Thanks for letting us know you are away, now I won't be worried and posting "Where did Skybird go?"

PS: From the slice of Germany I visited last week, it looks like a splendid country. I'll have to get back there in a few years for a longer visit.

[Rockstar]

... the average American consumes far more gasoline, electrical energy, and material ressources (to make products of them) than the average European.

Probably because we work longer hours in turn we want to play often too.

American’s average annual work hours now exceed Europe’s by more than 25 percent. Surprisingly, France has the longest European work hours.

Europe’s shorter work expectations are becoming institutionalized, and hence not likely to change back quickly. Consider the following:

Around six weeks of paid time off is now the annual norm across Europe. This is 2 to 3 times as many paid days off per year than Americans.

Vacation time has nearly doubled since the 1970s in Italy, Spain and the Netherlands.

France recently extended its three-year law reducing the workweek to 35 hours from 39. The law now includes companies with fewer than 20 employees.

A 2002 Timbro study found that the average European worker took more than 30 days of sick time per year.

According to a New York Times report, on an average day in Norway, 25 percent of Norway’s workers call in sick.

Sit on your buttocks all day and you won't expend much energy.

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Skybird

"In reality". If abrahams says so, it already is a contradiction in itself. He means: his reality.
...
Make your own conclusions if it really can be like Abraham's unbiased and competent remarks tries to make you believe.
...
How someone who -judging by his lightweight remakrs - obviously does not know too much about this can nevertheless conclude that if there are differences between america and Europe they nevertheless cannot be big, remains a mystery. New in the program: "Abraham's world". And if the European hypocrisy is "well-known", than surely Abraham'S tendency to twist and distort or ignore facts until they match his views is as well-known by now, too.

@ Skybird:
Did you press the "Preview" button before the "Submit" button when you posted this?
Don't you think you got a little bit too much personal and patronising against me.
Not that I mind, but this forum is for exchanging view with a certain level of respect for others and not for personal vendetta's.
You have surprised me with the weirdest postings recently, like

Originally Posted by Skybird

The scriptures my God has wirtten are different. He told me that Ive a right to sleep with your wife, so will you please shut up and send her over this evening, yes. Ah, and while we are at it, he also wrote that I have a right to use your banking account, so give 2000 dollars to take it with her when she comes, yes? Be a nice guy, just do as God has wanted, please. It is written, so it must be, you see. All I want is to live in peace with you.

to give just one of many examples of weird personal postings. You have even remarked in postings that you sometimes could kill me and that you doubted my very existence.
I really have nothing against you in person, but you seem to have a problem with criticism; you seem to be full of personal spite and acid. I am not intimidated by your knowledge, sarcasm, intelligence, or whatever you bring to bear in our discussions. In my time as a student I used to discuss till daybreak with people like you over a beer or two. But others on the forum start to get irritated and that's not the idea of this forum. I also find the quality of your argumentation more and more lacking lacking (see quote above).
I therefor decided to refrain from further comments on your postings and ignore them, also if I agree with some of your postings - which has also happened...
It might be better for the atmosphere on the General Topics Forum... and itmight perhaps be better for you as well.

[jumpy]

Around six weeks of paid time off is now the annual norm across Europe. This is 2 to 3 times as many paid days off per year than Americans.

Six weeks?! lol someone please tell me where I can get a job with that kind of holiday entitlement
I get 20 days annually, and untill recently that had to include the statutory bank-holidays- so in reality I only got thirteen days actual annual leave also our company allows for a maximum of three weeks time allocated for illness per year should it be needed, though if you take more than three days off on the trot due to sickness you must produce a doctors certifficate to prove you are/were unwell.
This is pretty much standard for most forms of employment here, particularily if you earn less than 17k per annum (like me - actual figure is £13,000pa before any tax deductions... boooo! sssss!).

[August]

Originally Posted by jumpy

Six weeks?! lol someone please tell me where I can get a job with that kind of holiday entitlement
I get 20 days annually, and untill recently that had to include the statutory bank-holidays- so in reality I only got thirteen days actual annual leave also our company allows for a maximum of three weeks time allocated for illness per year should it be needed, though if you take more than three days off on the trot due to sickness you must produce a doctors certifficate to prove you are/were unwell.
This is pretty much standard for most forms of employment here, particularily if you earn less than 17k per annum (like me - actual figure is £13,000pa before any tax deductions... boooo! sssss!).

It's all how you divide the numbers. 3 weeks (15 days?) of paid sick leave per year is very rare over here. I've worked for many companies over the years and have seen anything from 2 days to a maximum of 10 with most being less than 5.

So if you add, say 8 days, of the extra sick time you get to your 4 weeks vacation time the numbers come close to matching what he said. Presently i get 3 sick days and 10 vacation days per year at my job (trade school Teacher) and that's all i'll ever get as long as i'm here.

[jumpy]

Presently i get 3 sick days and 10 vacation days per year at my job (trade school Teacher) and that's all i'll ever get as long as i'm here

That's bloody awful m8
The sick leave thing we have is definitely something which we can't abuse, although it's there if needed for something serious. I think last year I had 4 sick days in total and none so far this time, but I think my boss would get a bit suspicious if I took a weeks annual leave preceeded by a week on the sick! :rotfl: not that I'm not tempted
As far as I know, most fulltime positions wheather 'salaried' or 'waged' offer sick pay in one form or another. The only time when this doesn't apply is when you work for a temping agency- usually any time you take off sick (ie. when you are not earning the agency a commision for your employment) is unpaid and given that there is a large market for tempory employment positions from office work to warehousing here, a large proportion of the workforce don't really have any kind of security against a rainy day. And when most tempory work is minimum wage (about £4.20 per hour, I think) this means many will have to continue to work to break even as long as they are able, with nothing really left for any kind of retirement except for the much maligned state pension, which somehow remains the same regardless of how much the cost if utilities and local services rise- our Council Tax being such a one.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4299632.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/4290596.stm

[XabbaRus]

Nuclear power, the only realistic alternative in my mind.

Yes wind power, solar power and wave power are great in theory but each on their own can't provide the amount of energy currently supplied by conventional power stations.

Even a mix of the technologies.

Nuclear power stations provide the power wihtout the emissions.

Now I haven't forgotten about the waste issue. Well you plan for that. Disposal has to be built into the plan. Hopefully progress will be made with fusion technology.

There is also the net carbon saving to be taken into account when building these things. If more CO2 is going to be generated building a powerplant than will be saved over the lifetime of its operations then is it worth it?

[Wim Libaers]

Originally Posted by XabbaRus

Nuclear power, the only realistic alternative in my mind.

Yes wind power, solar power and wave power are great in theory but each on their own can't provide the amount of energy currently supplied by conventional power stations.

Even a mix of the technologies.

Nuclear power stations provide the power wihtout the emissions.

Now I haven't forgotten about the waste issue. Well you plan for that. Disposal has to be built into the plan. Hopefully progress will be made with fusion technology.

There is also the net carbon saving to be taken into account when building these things. If more CO2 is going to be generated building a powerplant than will be saved over the lifetime of its operations then is it worth it?

Probably also a reason why Europe has lower CO2 emissions. The US has a lot of the dirtier coal-burning plants (which spit out much worse stuff in addition to CO2), while clean nuclear is more common in Europe. Of course, our eco-nuts are hard at work to outlaw nuclear power, after their previous success: stopping fast breeder reactors which would have created less waste and be more efficient than the reactors currently in use. Their approach makes sense if they want total energy reduction: getting the cleanest technology banned is easier when there are still alternatives, so they do that first, and at the end when the only tech left is very dirty, they can still oppose that because the flaws are obvious. And then we can go back to the stone age.

[XabbaRus]

I thought the UK still had a fast-breeder reactor.

[Damo1977]

Originally Posted by Abraham

When I was driving the subsim.commers around last week during the Meeting I suddenly had to pay € 97 (about $ 120) for a full tank (but that was after Kethrina & Rita of course)...
Didn't spoil our mood though.

What car you driving? My pro-American friend :P

[Abraham]

Originally Posted by Damo1977

What car you driving? My pro-American friend :P

Volvo V70 XC
And I am not your pro-American friend. I am just not anti-American...