Translation from the Devs - no more patches

[Beery]

It took the boat 3-5 hours to re-charge the batteries with the Schnorchel once every 2-3 days if travelling at moderate 4-8 knots and was thus much less in danger from aircraft which sank about 56% of all U-boats lost in the war.

Are we sure that's a full recharge? I just want to be sure. Some batteries last longer with a partial charge. Plus, if U-boats were under threat from air attack they might only recharge using the snkorkel during hours of darkness (3-5 hours). The other thing is, if they're travelling at 4-8 knots, they will get up to 2 days' travel from a partial charge. Unless it says it's a full recharge it may not be bugged, since 5 hours will get you half a charge, which may well last 2-3 days at 4knots.

I think we need harder facts before we're rolling on the floor laughing about the supposed 'bugged' state of the game.

[User 1834]

Originally Posted by Beery

I must say one thing, and that is that in the real world batteries don't charge up to 100%, so if anything the Type XXI is the only boat to model that aspect correctly. In other words it's not a bug in the Type XXI - it's a feature. The other boats are the ones with the bug, since their batteries all recharge to 100%.

True, I suppose. Although, it is quite annoying to have to manually switch over to standard propulsion and if you forget, you lose fuel efficiency. Perhaps we could mod it so it does charge to 100% just to simulate the engineer switching over when it wouldn't charge any more?

Also, the way U-Boat.net phrases its information on the XXI’s ability to recharge (and it does say recharge, not partially recharge. U-Boat.net seems to be fairly meticulous so I doubt they would have missed that) it seems to me that they mean recharge fully. I think we should proceed along that assumption unless information that states otherwise comes out. I will be looking for XXI battery recharge rates and I will let you know if I find anything.

[Beery]

I just did another test:

5 hours recharge gets you to 55% charge.
At 4 knots, the boat can travel for almost exactly 3 days on that 55% charge.

The boat is not bugged. It does exactly what Uboat.net says it should do on a 5 hour charge.

[Syxx_Killer]

Ok, here is from Wikipedia:

They could travel submerged at about five knots (9 km/h) for two or three days before recharging the batteries, which took less than five hours on the snorkel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Type_XXI_U-boat

http://www.worldhistory.com/wiki/T/Type-XXI-U-boat.htm

http://www.brainyencyclopedia.com/en...xi_u_boat.html

http://www.ebroadcast.com.au/lookup/...XI_U-boat.html

http://www.battle-fleet.com/pw/his/uboat20.htm

With all these sources, and I'm sure more are out there, I am pretty sure it was only 3-5 hours for a full recharges. That's one of the things why XXI was so revolutionary. Now, about those airplanes... :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

[Beery]

Originally Posted by User 1834

the way U-Boat.net phrases its information on the XXI’s ability to recharge (and it does say recharge, not partially recharge. U-Boat.net seems to be fairly meticulous so I doubt they would have missed that) it seems to me that they mean recharge fully...

We can't assume that, especially given that in 1945 even a snorkel at night was visible on radar - they would have charged for as little time as possible, especially given that there's a law of diminishing returns whenever you charge a battery - the first 50% gets you much further than the last 50%. Besides the word recharge does not necessarily mean full recharge. Given the fact that (as I've just tested) the game's Type XXI does exactly what Uboat.net says it should do, I'm pretty confident that the boat isn't bugged.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by Syxx_Killer

With all these sources...

Clearly, these are all based on the same source. The wording is almost identical. You can't quote the same source 5 times and claim it's convincing evidence.

Your 'sources' (or more accurately, your source):

Wikipedia:
"Improvements in battery design yielded a storage capacity roughly three times that of a Type VIIC, giving these boats enormous underwater range. They could travel submerged at about five knots (9 km/h) for two or three days before recharging the batteries, which took less than five hours on the snorkel."

WorldHistory.com:
"Improvements in battery design yielded a storage capacity roughly three times that of a Type VIIC, giving these boats enormous underwater range. They could travel submerged at about five knots (9 km/h) for two or three days before recharging the batteries, which took less than five hours on the snorkel."

BrainyEncyclopedia:
"Improvements in battery design yielded a storage capacity roughly three times that of a Type VIIC, giving these boats enormous underwater range. They could travel submerged at about five knots (9 km/h) for two or three days before recharging the batteries, which took less than five hours on the snorkel."

Ebroadcast.com:
"Improvements in battery design yielded a storage capacity roughly three times that of a Type VIIC, giving these boats enormous underwater range. They could travel submerged at about five knots for two or three days before recharging the batteries, which took less than five hours on the snorkel. "

Battlefleet.com:
"Improvements in battery design yielded a storage capacity roughly three times that of a Type VIIC, giving these boats enormous underwater range. They could travel submerged at about five knots for two or three days before recharging the batteries, which took less than five hours on the snorkel. "

These are ALL identical. None of these are corroberating sources. They are copied word-for-word from the exact same source. This is one source, and it does NOT contradict what I've surmised. In fact it may agree with my point. There's nothing in there that says a 'full recharge'.

This is not even very good quality sophistry. It's blatantly disingenuous.

[User 1834]

It seems we have come to an impasse then. Your tests are inconclusive. When you began recharging the batteries, what was their charge? (0%, 5%, 10%?) Were you running on the snorkel? The average underwater cruise speed for the XXI was 6 knots, not 4. (I can, and will, find the source that states that) And as you pointed out, 2 knots can make a large difference. We need to know exactly the circumstances when you began your test so we can repeat it.

Originally Posted by Beery

In fact it may agree with my point. There's nothing in there that says a 'full recharge'.

This same logic could be used against you. I have not found a single source that states it could do a partial recharge in 5 to 6 hours. Also, if it is just a partial recharge, why not only charge for 2 or 3 hours? It could still run for atleast a day or two. And they wouldn't have to worry about enemy aircraft as much.

[jasonb885]

Sigh.

I don't care how realistic a bug is.

If something doesn't work the way it was obviously _intended_ to work, the game is bugged.

[Syxx_Killer]

Boy, Beery, you're impossible to work with! :P :rotfl: :rotfl: j/k

The sub can go 340 miles at 5 knots. I've used the crush depth tool to change that. Is there a way to lenthen the time it takes the oxygen to deplete? I think the XXI could stay down a lot longer in regards to oxygen, too.

Those "sources" don't say a partial recharge either. :P

[User 1834]

Okay, looking further on U-boat.net we can see exactly what type of battery the XXI carried (372 cells 44 MAL 740 ) and its Ah rating (33900 Ah). All we need to figure it out for our selves is the strength of the generator onboard the XXI. Anyone have that information?

[Beery]

Originally Posted by User 1834

It seems we have come to an impasse then.

We're not at an impasse. I've shown conclusively that the game matches the data that we've found. You can test it for yourself.

Your tests are inconclusive.

Surely only to someone who has a religious belief in a battery that fully charges in 5 hours.

When you began recharging the batteries, what was their charge? (0%, 5%, 10%?)

They were at the point when the crew says that they are out. I believe that's about 2%.

Were you running on the snorkel?

Of course. That is what U-boat.net describes. I copied what Uboat.net said to the letter.

The average underwater cruise speed for the XXI was 6 knots, not 4.

But Uboat.net states 4knots as the speed, which gives the longest duration. Your assertion is invalid. It doesn't matter what the cruise speed was because Uboat.net didn't state that the boat was to be travelling at cruise speed - it said 4-8 knots. Check it out:

Uboat.net
"It took the boat 3-5 hours to re-charge the batteries with the Schnorchel once every 2-3 days if travelling at moderate 4-8 knots"

The other thing to test is the duration at the other end of the scale. Uboat.net claims 2 days duration with 3 hours charge at 8 knots.

We need to know exactly the circumstances when you began your test so we can repeat it.

And I'll provide the exact circumstances with pleasure:

Use up batteries fully until the crew says they are out.
Recharge them for 5 hours using the snorkel.
Sail at 25m depth at 4knots (I actually did it at 5 knots) for 72 hours. You will need to come up once for air.

The boat can do exactly what Uboat.net says it can do, and it does it on a 5 hour charge. I'm not sure what else you need from me to be convinced. Just do the tests yourselves.

This is looking like a religious argument on the part of my opponents. If that's the case I'm not going to spend any more time on it. In my opinion the Type XXI shouldn't even be in the game, and I am busy enough as it is without trying to argue against people who have already made up their mind and are searching for facts to fit their agenda. I was more than willing to change the Type XXI - in fact I did change it based on the data presented earlier, but I will not change the boat to suit an 'uberboat' agenda.

[User 1834]

Originally Posted by Beery

We're not at an impasse. I've shown conclusively that the game matches the data that we've found. You can test it for yourself.

Surely only to someone who has a religious belief in a battery that fully charges in 5 hours.

They were at the point when the crew says that they are out. I believe that's about 2%.

Of course. That is what U-boat.net describes. I copied what Uboat.net said to the letter.

But Uboat.net states 4knots as the speed, which gives the longest duration. Your assertion is invalid. It doesn't matter what the cruise speed was because Uboat.net didn't state that the boat was to be travelling at cruise speed - it said 4-7 knots.

And I'll provide the exact circumstances with pleasure:

Use up batteries fully until the crew says they are out.
Recharge them for 5 hours using the snorkel.
Sail at 25m depth at 4knots (I actually did it at 5 knots) for 72 hours. You will need to come up once for air.

The boat can do exactly what Uboat.net says it can do, and it does it on a 5 hour charge. I'm not sure what else you need from me to be convinced. Just do the tests yourselves.

This is looking like a religious argument on the part of my opponents. If that's the case I'm not going to spend any more time on it. In my opinion the Type XXI shouldn't even be in the game, and I am busy enough as it is without trying to argue against people who have already made up their mind and are searching for facts to fit their agenda. I was more than willing to change the Type XXI - in fact I did change it based on the data presented earlier, but I will not change the boat to suit an 'uberboat' agenda.

How amusing, you now insult me. *sigh* Very well, we will play your silly game. As you can see in my above post we can find the exact capacity of the XXI batteries. We can scientifically find the recharge rate if we know what kind of generator the XXI carried. Then we can end this child-like debate. I do not care about an "uber-boat", nor do I care about your obvious bias. I started my career in a IIA and was quite happy with it. I merely want the boats in the SHIII to match their real life counterparts.

Now, moving past that pointless clarification, U-boat.net states a range of possible speeds. 4-8 knots. That is quite a large range and could have a large impact on the battery discharge rates. However, 6 knots, their average cruising speed, actually is within that range. One test at 5 knots is hardly "conclusive" So, my assertion is hardly "invalid", unless of course if you have an agenda, and your conspicuous hatred of the XXI and its users makes it obvious you do. I don't care about that though, I merely want the boats to be historically correct. Now, lets stop this pointless and child-like bickering and fix this game.

Originally Posted by Beery

Surely only to someone who has a religious belief in a battery that fully charges in 5 hours.

Look around man! There are many batteries that can charge in less than 30 minutes to an hour, and these are in little consumer devices! Do you really believe that a military state of the art, for its time, battery would take a day or more to recharge?

Edit - Also, it seems unlikely to me that the U-boat crews would allow their battery to discharge completly. Not only would this badly damage their battery but it would also leave them defensless for a considerable amount of time. I say again, your test is inconclusive.

[Beery]

Originally Posted by User 1834

How amusing, you now insult me.

I'm not insulting you any more than you are insulting me. I've done the tests. No one else has bothered, yet they still dispute the results. Don't take my word for it - just do the test. It's simple. It shows what it shows.

One thing is for sure, and that is that Uboat.net, if it is indeed claiming a 'full recharge', is astonishingly vague about it. I mean is it 3 hours or 5 hours? That very vagueness argues that it's an arbitrary charge time meant to give the boat a certain range, or to allow recharge at a certain safe time, and not necessarily based on a full recharge.

Anyway, I've spent enough time on this. I've gone out of my way to test a boat that I feel shouldn't even exist in the sim, simply because I thought that if it was bugged, I could make some folks happy by fixing it. Now it seems that people don't care whether it's bugged or not - they want a certain mythical Type XXI, and if facts get in the way, that's too bad. I don't much like being fooled into spending time looking up data and doing tests, when the folks who supposedly want to find out the facts get all uptight when the results of the investigation don't match what they want to see. I try to find facts, and I'm not going to blithely adopt any agenda and join any crusade. Nor will I ignore the results of my enquiries just because some folks want to bully me into it. My tests show that, on a 5 hour charge, the boat does what Uboat.net says it should do. You can ignore that, I won't.

[Average Joe]

Hi,

Much like many other posts mention, the bugs that bother me most are:

1. The 'null' area patrol (this is a minor problem for me).

2. Torpedo-load screen problems with IXD2 sub.

3. Battery-recharge problem with XXI sub.

4. FUMO-391 snorkel-radar not working correctly ('Radar/radar-antenna Destroyed').

5. SU-Apparat Nibelung sonar not working correctly ('Sonar Destroyed').

I'm pretty sure the above radar/sonar models become available only for the XXI, and VII-C/42 subs. Someone please post if this is wrong.
___

Torpedo-reload screen glitch with IXD2 is not too bad, as others have offered several workarounds.

XXI battery-recharge can be manually shut-off, but it's a big headache for the long run.

FUMO-319 ('radar-destroyed' problem) can be avoided, simply by not using this model radar.

As many mentioned before, submerging and going 'snorkel' in late-war can be very hazardous! I keep imagining a fully-functioning FUMO-319/snorkel during 1944/45, and receiving 'Radar-Contacts' while submerged!

Btw, SU-Apparat Nibelung sonar ('sonar-destroyed' problem) can be avoided by using 'S-Gerat' instead, but I'm pretty sure there is no other sonar-selection for the XXI(?).

___

It's just my opinion, yet I hope the SH3 devs make 1 last-effort and fix these most glaring bugs. They are basic features of the game and should work correctly.

Back to VIIC, late-1943. Things are heating up!

--edit--
p.s. Thank goodness SH3 is so open to mods, mod-fixes, etc. It really makes the game!

[User 1834]

Fooled into looking up data and doing tests? You have "looked up" 1 thing, and then distorted that to meet your anti XXI agenda (I don't understand that, it is little more than a submarine. How can you hate a submarine so passionately?) Your "tests", one actually, did not prove much of anything. You assumed that a u-boat crew would critically damage their batteries by completely discharging them. In reality they would probably try to recharge their battery at about the 25 to 50% mark. Plus the average cruise speed of the XXI underwater was any where from 4 to 8 knots, although I have found a source stating it was 6 knots. Your test was at 5 knots. If you really wanted the XXI in SHIII to perform like the real thing you would have performed more tests at different speeds.

As it is now, all you have conclusively proven is how little you care about the accuracy of the XXI boat. I don't care about an "uber-boat", as I pointed out before. If I did. I would have loved the infinite battery charge mod, wouldn't I? I only want it to match the performance of the real XXI.

Thank you Beery, defender of accuracy, protector of all things realistic! You have let down the users of the XXI by inconclusive testing, inadequate information, and heavy, obvious bias. *sigh* I should have known you would do this when I saw your anti XXI bias at the Ubisoft forums. Very well, do not trouble yourself with the XXI. Others, me included, will find out how it performed and make the appropriate modifications. We, quite frankly, don't need you to hold our hands to get historical realism.

(Note) – As I have mentioned before. Had your tests actually been conclusive I would have been very happy with how the XXI is right now. In fact, had you REALLY proven that the XXI took several days to charge I would have congratulated you on your hard work. Although, heh, I might still have tried to fix the 100% battery charge bug.

Also, does anyone know what kind of generator the XXI u-boat, or any u-boat actually, carried and what its charging ability was? Lets get some real numbers.