The RUb Deck Gun discussion, since it keeps coming up.

[Beery]

I only just noticed this:

Originally Posted by oRGy

...to be constructive, what needs to looked into more is:

1) Getting rid of the red crosshair for deck gun aiming
2) Getting rid of the stabilisation
3) Reducing crew ai accuracy

As far as I can gather no serious effort has been made in these areas.

OH MY GOD! Serious effort HAS been made in these areas! I've done a LOT of work on these areas myself, and it just shows how little you know about it when you have no clue about these things at all.

The red crosshair, as far as I know, is hard-coded. I have looked, line-by-line, through the file that controls crosshairs, and it's not in there. This took me at least 8 hours of solid work, changing the file and testing the results.

Stabilization is, as far as we know, hard-coded. Many hours, days, even weeks have been spent looking into this.

Crew AI accuracy is probably hard coded. This is another area that has been looked into in great detail over many weeks.

If you think these things are easy to find and fix, why the heck don't you stop whining about the efforts of me and others, and go and find and fix them?

It is an insult to the mod community to suggest that these haven't been looked into seriously. Maybe if you tried modding yourself you might have some inkling about how *******ing difficult it is, and you might have a bit more respect for those of us who try to make your game better.

Jeez! I cannot believe I'm arguing this subject with someone who hasn't a clue what we've attempted, and who therefore hasn't any respect at all for what we've accomplished.

Honestly, why do I bother?

[Beery]

Originally Posted by oRGy

Well, thats the best explanation I've seen so far!

However it's very dubious in my opinion as it patronises the player and doesn't simulate the majority of engagements properly, as said. It might 'simulate' the occasional long engagement if you take the engagement VERY abstractly, but ingame it's just absurd.

Clearly you think so. But you didn't make the mod, and you don't like using it. I assembled the mod, I use it, and I like it. It doesn't seem absurd to me, and it works for many other players too. The fact that you don't like it doesn't make it absurd. When it comes down to it, I don't care at all if you think the deck gun reload time is absurd. If you think it's absurd, DON'T USE THE MOD!

Regardless, as you've said, you have the right to make your own bad decisions. Just don't get too upset when most people complain, as your mod is not 'personal' but public in character - otherwise you wouldn't have released it.

Most people love RUb and like the changes I've made. RUb is the most popular mod for SH3, and many mods have been made to suit RUb because it is so popular. The people who don't like it are in a minority, so when you say 'most people complain' you are exaggerating your position by a lot. My position has always been that RUb is for a minority. Clearly it's not for the arcade-style player. It demands a lot from players, and it gives a lot back to the players who can handle it. Those who can't handle it shouldn't use it, and they certainly shouldn't spend hours whining about it.

Face facts - you are in a small minority of players who just can't handle the fact that I nerfed the deck gun. There are a handful of you folks, and there are tens, perhaps hundreds who use RUb and who like it. Sometimes I think you folks just can't deal with the fact that a mod you don't like is so successful.

Since I only get to post a the library these days, all I can contribute is this: RUB is a mod, nothing more. Beery very carefully put every single change into the readme, so it's possible for any player to just not use the firing-rate change. Also, someone else released a quicky mod that lets you have a firing rate of 30 or 40 seconds, instead of either 15 or 60. If this were not so this discussion might have more merit, but everyone is free to play any way they want.

Beery has given his reasons for doing it the way he did, and, agree or disagree, all your arguing is unlikely to persuade him to change it, nor should he. I wish the rate of fire was self-adjusting by time in action and crew fatigue, but it doesn't look like it's ever going to happen.

A re-reading of the entire thread will reveal one important factor-that this discussion has been going on for months, and no one is changing their minds on either side.

My solution is, use the rate of fire you like, and stop this silliness.

[stljeffbb1]

I'll say it again....the game does not model the deck gun terribly well, even though I bet they (Ubisoft) were pleased with the results.....

Probably too much of a task to model the uptop ammo holders, then the ammo train....what some sharp modder should do is model an ammo train just like the repair team box in the crew management screen....the less sailors, the longer the time....

I'm reading Hitler's U-Boat War by Clay Blair, and so far even this books descriptions of deck gun usage is rather vague....

-Jeff

[1shmael]

It seems to me that the RUB Mod, in reducing firing times, has targeted the symptoms of the problem, rather than the problem itself.

The Deck Gun historially, as I understand it, had an optimal firing time of 4 rounds per minute. This is now reduced, I believe, to 1 round per minute, to simulate four misses.

Why is this necessary?

Because the human player can be extremely accurate with the gun while the real sailor, on a pitching submarine deck, could not (conversely, the computer AI can't hit the broad side fo a t3 at point blank range).

So why not just make it harder for the human player to target enemy shipping?

The game already has a mechanism that throws off the aim of the gun: the pitching deck of the submarine. If the human player fires the round while the deck is in motion, the shot goes wild. It is necessary to wait for the gun to stabalize before firing.

Theoretically, it is possible to modify the parameters affecting deck motion -- even eliminate the gun's stabalizer. If the stabalizer is eliminated, the pitch and roll, even in calm weather, should be such that an accurate shot will be easier for the AI than for all-but-the-most-skilled human players. In rough water, hitting a target at anything but long range would likely prove near impossible.

I would also like to see some positive effect gained from training my gun crew. I currently have three qualified gunners manning my 88 and it still seems to reload with the same speed (in RUB) as it does with three regular sailors. I also detect no improvement in their aim. I would love to see a system where the AI can perform better on the gun than I can in some circumstances.

In summary then, I would recomend that someone have a look for the parameters affecting the gun-mount stabalization and affecting the submarine's pitch and roll. Once these are rendered such that the gun becomes challenging to operate effectively for a human, we can see if any changes to the IA-governance will produce increases in the effectiveness of a well-trained crew (increased accuracy and reduced reload time).

[Beery]

Originally Posted by 1shmael

Gun historially, as I understand it, had an optimal firing time of 4 rounds per minute. This is now reduced, I believe, to 1 round per minute, to simulate four misses...

This is a common misconception. The RUb reload time doesn't simulate misses. That would be better done by reducing the amount of ammo available. RUb simulates real life reload times. No real U-boat could sustain 4 rounds per minute for more than 5 or 6 minutes - enough to fire 20 or 25 rounds. The rest of the ammo required much longer to load and fire. Since there is no way to simulate the two firing rates, RUb uses an average. The result is not liked by many players, but it is as realistic as we can get it.

As for the gun stabilization issues, over the past 5 months lots of people have been looking for ways to make the gun pitch and roll with the boat, but there has been no real success. If there had been, a mod would be widely available.

[WhiteW0lf]

Orgy is just another forum troll beery, I play 98% realism and love the way that uber deck gun was taken down to more realistic, these complainers are the ones that just traveled on the surface firing away with the deck gun and utilised it as their primary uboat weapon instead of the torpedo.

Dont take the time to respond to these trolls that just want to get your panties into a bunch.

Myself and the majority of the community love your mod and the hard work you have put into, you have definitely made SH3 a five star game for me.

[Kpt. Lehmann]

Originally Posted by WhiteW0lf

Orgy is just another forum troll beery, I play 98% realism and love the way that uber deck gun was taken down to more realistic, these complainers are the ones that just traveled on the surface firing away with the deck gun and utilised it as their primary uboat weapon instead of the torpedo.

Dont take the time to respond to these trolls that just want to get your panties into a bunch.

Myself and the majority of the community love your mod and the hard work you have put into, you have definitely made SH3 a five star game for me.

Insulting other community members won't get anyone very far here Whitewolf... yourself included.

The title of this thread is "The Deck Gun Discussion." Posts made here were/are in the interest of defining "realism" for the deck gun.
Your insult directed at oRGy is trolling in itself. oRGY is a contributing member just as Beery and all other mod builders here.

This discussion contains more than one point of view or perception of realism and became quite heated. I am equally guilty in that respect. I only disagree with rate of fire. I DO AGREE with reduced damage and a deck gun reload rate of AT LEAST 30 seconds... Even at these settings a player cannot consider the deck gun to be a primary weapon of attack. Inaccuracy of crew and ammo loadout determine this. Beginning in 1942... the time you spend exposed on the surface may cost you your boat. The deck gun is only useful for finishing off 1-2 damaged ships.... COUPE DE GRÂCE.

Your statement regarding the "majority of the community" is not one you can back-up or prove. I think it would be more correct to say that the majority of the community modifies their game to personal taste (or viewpoint on their definition of realism/vs gameplay.)

Furthermore, RUb is a big collection/collation of mods built by many community members. Beery added some of his modifications and compiled RUb. RUb is a mod BUILT BY THE COMMUNITY in essence.

We all have our points of view... insults aren't required. Whether they come from community members, modders, or moderators... it doesn't matter. Such things are a distraction.

Life is short. Lets move on.

[jason210]

I don't agree with the reduced damage or reduced reload times. The only realistic alteration to do would be reduced accuracy.


The only thing that's wrong with the default deck gun is its accuracy, and I really wish modders would leave the other variables alone and tinker with this one more. More misses and everything is ok. It just isn't logical to penalise our use of gun by reducing the explosive / armour peircing power, or ammo, or reload, in an attempot to balance things out. This seems to me to be the wrong approach, because it has the unwanted aforementioned side effects, and in a way these are more unrealistic than having a super-accurate gun. The only thing wrong with the default gun is the person who's firing it! I've always used the gun judiciously...

[Emcon]

3. Getting the reloads to be more realistic

Beery

The first twenty rounds could probably be fired in 5 minutes (15 seconds per round).

The first 30 rounds could probably be fired in 14 minutes (an average of 28 seconds per round).

The first 40 rounds could probably be fired in 27 minutes (an average of 41 seconds per round).

Reload times get longer the longer you use it, this could be simulated when you add 'fatigue' to the deckgun itself(much like crew fatigue) So you will have both the gun and the crew getting 'tired'.

Which means the longer you use the gun the slower the reloads!

This is how it could work:
-When the crew is manning/(even better when the gun is reloading) the gun will get more fatigued.
-When the boat is surfaced and the gun is unmanned/(even better when the gun is manned but not reloading) the gun will get less fatigued.
-When the boat is submerged the gun fatigue stays at the same level.

It is an idea but I dont know if this could be done, im not a modder...

Realism

[gouldjg]

Originally Posted by Emcon

3. Getting the reloads to be more realistic

Beery

Reload times get longer the longer you use it, this could be simulated when you add fatigue to the deckgun (much like crew fatigue)

So the longer you use the gun the slower the reloads!

This is how it could work:
-When the crew is manning/(even better when the gun is reloading) the gun will get more fatigued.
-When the boat is surfaced and the gun is unmanned/(even better when the gun is manned but not reloading) the gun will get less fatigued.
-When the boat is submerged the gun fatigue stays at the same level.

It is an idea but I dont know if this could be done, im not a modder...

Realism

I have a number of realtime mods that are currently doing this by adding extra work to tire men quicker on Deck guns than other compartments. I also added a weather penalty.

There are ways but not all people are prepared to handle micromanagement.

That said, I did set the main cfg to have a 3drender of 512 so should I wish to go long distance without micro managing, I just knock time compression upto 1024 and fatigue will then pause.

At 512 and under the fatigue model kicks in and men tire but it still allows me to warp to areas faster than having to wait a week i.e. lining up a attack or chasing down a convoy.

It is working well at the moment but I am sure it will get better.

Anyway I will post the setting for SH3 commander and people can try it.

[Emcon]

I have a number of realtime mods that are currently doing this by adding extra work to tire men quicker on Deck guns than other compartments.

That's not what I meant. I didn't explain it clearly enough, I guess. I shall edit my post.

[gouldjg]

Ahhh I see your point SRY .

I cannot see any way this could be done within this games limitations.

1. Beerys reduction of firing rate is definetly the best solution as far as the long term fatigue model is concerned.

2. Instant penalties can be added to the deck gun so men get a instant drop to whatever % you wish however this does not work with long term fatigue models.

3. Faster drain rates can be added whilst using the gun but again does not work with long term fatigue models.

4. Weather energy drain can be modded this can work with long term fatigue models buts needs some maths skills and too much testing.

5. Can have it so you need more qualifications.

Most of the above is the only modding options we people know of at the moment so if you are using RUB and want realism then Beery has made the best choice IMHO.

[Emcon]

np gouldjg

At this moment I use beery's fire-rate solution.

I don't use the long term fatigue model, so I could use faster drain rates etc. The problem is that it won't work, I think. Because as soon as your men get fatigued you can replace them and you'll have a fast reloading time again.

[-Dreadnought-]

I am curious, why does it take 3 minutes to reload the deck gun in the Real U-boat Mod? I think about 45 seconds or less wouldbe enough...