Escort see me without pinging

[maillemaker]

I could also see this "photonics mast" being integrated into some kind of deployable tethered buoy, so you can get a peek at what is going on topside from the deep without having to surface.

Steve

[RussaX37]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I could also see this "photonics mast" being integrated into some kind of deployable tethered buoy, so you can get a peek at what is going on topside from the deep without having to surface.

Steve

Nowdays submarines are not so much interesting as the old ones when you have to manage with everything and such a poor conditions for crew

[Paulebaer1979]

Originally Posted by RussaX37

Nowdays submarines are not so much interesting as the old ones when you have to manage with everything and such a poor conditions for crew

Yes that´s right. Because of the realy well sonar equipment we are not interested in "looking out" because we know allready who is around us. Type 212 passive sonar is able to detect the noise of propellers from coastal container feeder at ranges up to 100sm. Below 80sm the sonar is able to detect the lofar-noise of machine, gearbox, aux-engine. So why go up to peri-depth and look out, when we already know nearly all?

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I'm not sure where this idea of complete invisibility comes from.

You can do everything right and still get detected! The closer you are, the greater your chances of being detected. The closer to being broadside to the escort, the greater your chances of being detected. If you raise your periscope, the greater your chances of being detected. The later in the war, the greater your chances of being detected. The calmer the seas, the greater your chances of being detected.

All this is true even if you are at silent running and low RPMs.

If you run across the bow of an escort, even at silent speed, odds are good you will be detected.

Just chalk it up to someone dropping a wrench or farting too loud in the head.

Steve

Indeed, complete stealth of a U-boat in SH3 is somewhat impossible. Just by monitoring noise indicator could tell a lot about it. Just make a test mission and you'll notice this too. Make a lonely destroyer come right at you and while submerged-silent running-dead stop, see what happens. Noise indicator turns red and you will be pinged. What triggers it ? You can only guess or use your imagination to figure out why or what gives away your presence to a destroyer completly out of the blue.

Let's not forget we're talking here about very first detection of a u-boat and it does not matter what angle your u-boat is facing the incoming DD keeping in mind that destroyer is unaware about a u-boat nearby. In SH3 all that matters is the distance and how close DD is passing by. But the distance itself shouldn't be the key of primary detection if you're being extremly carefull about noise.

And then of course when you don't get any answers to why does it happen you're starting to make up things like somebody dropped a wrench or farted at the wrong moment, however these odds are not modded in SH3 (I wouldn't mind if it was)

This event to HOW a DD might find you without using a passive sonar first - would be a magnetic anomaly detection devic. However the usage of this kind of technology was very closely linked to aircrafts and not to warships and of course it's not covered in SH3 nor in other supermods that I know.

Conclusion: Too sensitive detection sensors ? I'm not 100% sure, but I think it might be it..

[maillemaker]

It's farts.

Steve

[Tango589]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

It's farts.

Steve

Yeah, Bernards' been cooking his famous cabbage and sprout surprise again...

[Marcello]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

I could also see this "photonics mast" being integrated into some kind of deployable tethered buoy, so you can get a peek at what is going on topside from the deep without having to surface.

Steve

It would not be stable, I suspect.

[Paulebaer1979]

Originally Posted by sailor_X

Indeed, complete stealth of a U-boat in SH3 is somewhat impossible. Just by monitoring noise indicator could tell a lot about it. Just make a test mission and you'll notice this too. Make a lonely destroyer come right at you and while submerged-silent running-dead stop, see what happens. Noise indicator turns red and you will be pinged. What triggers it ? You can only guess or use your imagination to figure out why or what gives away your presence to a destroyer completly out of the blue.

That was my job yesterday afternoon. I tested it with Clemson, Hunt I-III and C-Class. First test was with destroyers at low speed (5kn). When i was in a IXD2 (and XXI) at 20m silent running all stop. Below 400m the indicator went to orange, then to red and the destroyers started to ping.
With higher speed of the destroyers they could come closer - but they found every time. The only chance to be not found is going deeper. Below 120m they didn´t recognice me - even when i was mooving with ahead slow.
So in SH3 they have a MAD-system wich isn´t known by the BDU. Damm!

[maillemaker]

I have always assumed that the logic was that no submarine is completely silent, and so if they get close enough a diligent passive operator will hear the sub.

While you are in the sub submerged at any depth you are always hearing creakings and groanings from the boat.

Steve

[Paulebaer1979]

Originally Posted by maillemaker

While you are in the sub submerged at any depth you are always hearing creakings and groanings from the boat.

Today that´s wrong. In a well trimmed sub with "all stop" you only can hear the crew. The hull doesn´t make noise because the pressure doesn´t change - if the sub don´t change its depth.
I guess it was so in the past, too. So we have a silly bug in our nice game.

[yuanzheng]

Originally Posted by Paulebaer1979

I had a very good navy-glass (Zeiss) when searching the peri and the sub was in a circle with maximum 2km. 20% is a very well result in this case. The periscopes in the old days were a little bit smaller then now. So in the past the peris were very hard to see if the commander used it quickly.

In the game they start to search for the sub, if they get any reason. If you don´t show your peri or conning tower they do not search you until the first torp hits a target - or someone with passive sonar is able to hear your sub. That´s it. In 9 of 10 cases i´m able to go inside a konvoy with my sub until 1942 (VII or IX). Later it´s nearly impossible. I play LSH5.1 at 82% realism.

I THINK IS VERY GOOD

[Paulebaer1979]

Originally Posted by yuanzheng

I THINK IS VERY GOOD

The glass are nearly perfect. They are only a little bit to heavy - but sailors are strong.

In 2005 i used to play Stock-SH3 online - until they always kicked me from the servers a month later. They thought i was cheating - because i had the best results in the match (type VII (my sub) and XXI (other guys) against konvoy) without being killed. But it was my job being as well as i could - i wasn´t long enough in the lobby to tell that. But i´m not perfekt. My commanding officer was nearly perfekt

[Riccardo1975]

This is the one thing in SH3 that TRULY used to do my head in.

When I first started on SH3 I thought the best way to kill DD's was point blank, i.e 500-800m thanks to steam trails and bad detonators?

So i'm sat at 13m, rigged for silent running early in the pitch black morning somewhere West of Londonderry in 1000+m water, sea maybe 4m/s, waiting for a lone V&W to cross my stern, rubbing my hands in glee. Opened the tube door early, didn't raise the scope too much, not a sound.

Got within 800m and the meter starts flashing red. Great....

How does he spot me? He's going a good speed,(not pinging)and steering a straight course so he's not expecting anyone in the near future.

Now, luckily I use Hsie and Stieblers patches and have DD's pass directly over me all the time. If they dont think your there your safe.

Or I kill them with TIII magnetic shots.

Riccardo

[BigWalleye]

Originally Posted by Paulebaer1979

Today that´s wrong. In a well trimmed sub with "all stop" you only can hear the crew. The hull doesn´t make noise because the pressure doesn´t change - if the sub don´t change its depth.
I guess it was so in the past, too. So we have a silly bug in our nice game.

As I have read, it was a bit different in WW2 They didn't have the vibration isolation and sound deadening technologies in use today. To hold depth at "all stop" you have to operate the pumps. Turn on the pumps and the escorts hear the noise. Turn off the pumps and the sub settles, as numerous small leaks let water in. And, as the sub settles, the hull compresses, increasing displacement, so you settle even more....

All this is modeled in Stiebler's "Slient Running" patch. Makes an interesting dilemma for the Kaleun!

BTW, escorts have passive hydrophones too, and they are of much longer range that active. They don't have to ping to detect you. Pinging, even today, is primarily for a targeting solution.

[Riccardo1975]

If I dive to 200m+, ahead 1/3 and set planes to surface my boat kind of skims along without sinking deeper. Above 200m DD's can hear me. Thermocline maybe?

Passive phones on ASW vessels I appreciate but they always seem to be making far too much noise for their soundman to stand a chance of hearing me creaking/RFSR at 25m? ASW trawlers I always find parked between Gib and Tangiers but the real McCoy(Tribal/BlackSwan/J&K)never seem to stop and listen....

Rich