It's time I finally learn (Manual shooting)

[Shkval]

Don't give up now...

[HertogJan]

When turning the dial on the right for AoB and pressing the send to TDC you'll see the top left dial has changed position.

Wat you basically do when entering the AoB in the TDC is entering the target's true course (which you can see on the top left dial).


Make sense?

[Maggoty]

Originally Posted by Carrollsue

Will, kind of…. I have a tube with mirror and lens of a know length, so you can get two image’s and when you superimpose them on a calibrated system you find distance and you can find height doing that to, just different technique. Now with that , I'm not the a good math person, but if I know the height of something and using a machine that will give me the angle between that height and the straight line to the target that I’m looking at it( not sure if it cos or sin), I can find the length to it. using Trig

Originally Posted by twm47099

The method in the game, matching the WL with the top of the mast, was how it was done. There are a couple of WW2 periscopes in the Washington Navy Yard Navy Museum. There is a sliding plate at the eyepiece that moves up and down when you turn the range knob. One image moves. The double image (put base of one at top of the other) is not as easy to use as a camera range finder (although that could be due to degradation of old optics), but it was designed to work at much longer distances and without a long enough range finder baseline.

This is a link to the 1946 periscope manual. One thing I found interesting is that the stadimeter (at least in 1946) could be rotated 90 degrees to be able to use ship length as well as mast or funnel height.
http://www.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/pscope/chap4c.htm#4J

In "Run Silent Run Deep" there are a few descriptions of attack approaches where the range is estimated using the stadimeter. In a couple of long range early estimates the captain estimates the height of the mast above the deck (not WL) and uses that as his reference height. As the range shortens he improves the range estimates.

Tom

Originally Posted by CapnScurvy

Yep, that's how it was done. I too have read how the stadimeter could be moved both vertically and horizontally depending on your desire to calculate for either range or angle on bow. The vertical placement measured height, the horizontal placement measured length......both measurements were compared to what the "known" estimated measurements should be. A tool like the Range Omnimeter was used to help in calculating the difference between the two (so was a quick mathematician on the firing party). The estimated range came from the height calculation, the AoB of the target came from the length measurement difference.

The stock game needs to be corrected for several things before a good manual firing solution can be gleaned. The mast heights need to be corrected; the Field of View needs to be corrected allowing the scopes Telemeter Divisions to be used for measurement. For instance, when the game was first released the jap CV Hiryu had a mast height of 20 meters (65.6 feet). After a lot of gnashing of teeth, the Developers changed some of the worst offenders (as memory serves me, it was with their 1.4 patch), however their new mast height for the Hiryu is still off the mark by about 6 meters. One of the things you'll run into is some mods don't pay a bit of attention to this type of thing. Take TMO 2.5 and check the Recognition Manual for the Hiryu. The mast height is back to the original figure of 20 meters. To read an accurate stadimeter measurement it should read about 37 meters (121.4 feet). The difference in the height will throw off a stadimeter reading by about half the range it should read.

It's too bad the game limit's us to only using the stadimeter for range finding with the vertical process. Believe me, if there were a way to make the stadimeter work as the real thing I'd of done it. But the stadimeter is "hard coded" in the game (much like the math formula it uses to determine the stadimeters reading), there's nothing we can do about its short comings.

One thing I know we could do is make the Recognition Manual list more than one height measurement. Allowing a player to choose which particular spot on the target you wish to use when matching the stadimeter water line to it. You'd have to have a better way of telling the TDC/Position Keeper what height to use when you do the stadimeter second image, but for a long time I've considered doing it. The first part of the issue is done with the correction of the Field of View to the measuring device (the scopes view) with Optical Targeting Correction. What's left is to take each target ship and measure to the various spots on the ship (the ships funnel, the top of the bridge, the ships deck), put those measurements into the RM, then make a dial for the ships particular height that's used by the stadimeter and make a range estimate using that particular spot. If you can't see the mast top, use the targets funnel instead. Just something I've had in the back of my mind for a while now.

Well shoot that's pretty cool, I figured the real life version used a split image I just didn't know how close the game was or was not to reality. Thanks for the info guys it's kind of cool learning this stuff. Scruvy I do hope you find a way to do the selector switch, those masts at more than a couple thousand yards are killer.

[CapnScurvy]

Originally Posted by fastfed

Wow.. I reallly... REALLY REALLY suck at this

I'm about to go back to auto shooting.. I'm close, kinda close but I'm shooting from the hip and im missing.

I know its got to do with the AOB..

Speed and AoB are both important. Get the speed wrong and the torp heads behind the target, or leads it too much. The AoB is the tricky part because it's left to your judgement to figure out what the angle is.

In real life a Captain could depend on his binocular vision (using two eye's, not just one) when on the bridge to get a good depth perception of what a target AoB was. After practice, any crew member became quite good at it. The game however doesn't allow for this. The bridge view in-game is still only as good as the flat, 2 dimensional screen it is shown on. There's no way of simulating depth perception with a monitor (I don't think even using 3D glasses and a 3D screen would do it justice). So we have monocular vision which is like you going to the window and covering one eye, it makes quite a difference in what you can perceive.

As in real life the periscope view is indeed monocular vision. That's why the boys over at research and development came up with a stadimeter that could measure both height and length of a target....the length to help with figuring AoB of a target. Regrettably the function wasn't put into the games stadimeter, nor was their correct field of view that allowed for measuring length or height with the tools available (like the Telemeter Divisions of the scope lens). So, your left to figure AoB pretty much on your own.

One big help is to plot your target on the Nav Map and use the protractor to figure the targets tract and AoB. It's simple, accurate, and it gives you a better understanding of what the firing party actually did when a target firing solution was made. No one piece of the pie was counted on to make the firing solution. It took several men (anywhere from 12 to 15) to make up the Torpedo Firing Party, each contributing their input in making each torpedo firing count.

In-game ...."you the man"! The duties of a dozen men are on your shoulders with manual targeting. Now that's what makes the game fun!!

[Carrollsue]

If you want to do the research go on the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks--Techniques, tactics, tutorials, videos (in this forum).


There you will find 256 or something post go to the very first post and read the next 30 post or more and I think you will want to take a break, but you will know, it’s all there. Now those, well most of them, some are gone now, who did those post back to SH3 or so are the ones you are talking to now…Not me though, to dumb…


Hope it helps

[fastfed]

Originally Posted by HertogJan

When turning the dial on the right for AoB and pressing the send to TDC you'll see the top left dial has changed position.

Wat you basically do when entering the AoB in the TDC is entering the target's true course (which you can see on the top left dial).


Make sense?

Yes!! I get it, but what I don't get is how to get range properly and speed.

I can do the three minute mark with my sonar guy, but thats not always doable in every situation (When a merchant pops up out of no where you have no time)

using the stadimeter thing.. I level the periscope with the horizon line of the ocean and start to line the ships bottom of the hull with the top of the ship.

I get that, but sometimes its hard to do.. Do I line up the flag poles? I mean its annoying.

Then speed thing.. if I wait another minute or so and check range again, it will give me my speed right.. But even then, it shows sometimes being wayyyyy off.

it seems I could do range and speed calculations and get different results each time.


Im going to do screen shots of my process and post them here.

give me a little and please critique me.. thanks

[magic452]

What I'd do if I were you would be to go to a single war patrol, sometime after you can get radar and use easy settings, and go out and find a ship. You have been playing long enough to know where they are. As soon as you find one save the game. You can than use this save to get some target practice. Keep it as simple as you can, your just learning, you can add more difficult situations later once you get a handle on what's happening.

Use the radar to get the speed and course using the three minute rule.
Radar sweeps are 20 seconds so wait till the contact jumps ahead and start the stopwatch than mark it's position. Wait three minutes and when it jumps again mark that position. Do this two or three times and than connect all the marks. This will give you good speed and target course. Use the link I gave you earlier to figure AoB. All you need now is range and bearing.

With radar you have plenty of time to do all this. You can wait for the target to get closer before you need range/bearing, at close range the steadimeter will work OK, check the attack map for accuracy of your firing solution and adjust as necessary Speed and AoB should be good so range is all that should be all you may need to adjust. You do not need a perfect firing solution till the target is within your comfortable range, that should be something like 800 to start out to 2000 yards as you improve your skills.

With radar you have time to try different set ups etc. Just keep replaying that save till you get it down pat than move onto something more changeling. Remember KISS, Keep It Simple Submariner.

Magic

[HertogJan]

Sound to me you're not giving the TDC the correct vessel ID if at all, so just to make sure. (no offense ).

Before any input to the TDC you have to ID the target.
When manually identifying a target via the identification book don't forget to
A) lock the vessel in TBT or periscope and B) 'mark it' so the name of the vessel you're looking at is in the top left corner at TBT or periscope station.
Or, lock the vessel on TBT or periscope and ask your XO (or which ever) to ID it for you.
If you didn't ID the target, any input (speed, AoB/True heading or range) will mean nothing to the TDC and you'll get what you're describing.

PS_ Any time you send information to the TDC you have to be locked on the target.

Originally Posted by fastfed

Yes!! I get it, but what I don't get is how to get range properly and speed.

I can do the three minute mark with my sonar guy, but thats not always doable in every situation (When a merchant pops up out of no where you have no time).

Getting speed is done via the 3min rule and the Nomograph, don't wait for 4 or 5min's but wait 6mins, 9min's, 12min's and so on (keeps things simple ).


As for range I use the stadimeter, sometimes even from 8000yrds out. The range will be off a couple of 100yrds but I recalculate range starting from 4000yrds then every 10* or 15* degrees to fine tune it, keeping an eye on the targets heading on the TDC (sometimes the true heading I put in changed slightly and I adjust accordingly).



When I started this game I had contact updates turned on to get comfortable with the manual targeting and I used the PK and attack map to check my calculations and inputs (speed, true heading and range), now I'm confie enough and don't use the attack map that way anymore.
I still use contact updates (early war) so I have a dot on the Nav. map to make things easier (the game cheats, so do I ) But as soon as I get Radar I turn it off, I'm learning ColonelSandersLite method as seen in his patrol vid's" cause I like the way he does it .

Side note:
Would like to see how he or anyone els does it without radar (early war), then I might switch off the contact updater if its easy enough.

On topic:
I never had a vessel pop out of nowhere, the only time that happens is in heavy fog but you or your crew member still must have heard it on the hydrophones.
Anyway, you'll have three options:
1_ Keep listening to the hydro's and figure out if the sound is getting closer or not and guesstimate the lot.
2_ Use sonar (Don't forget to adjust the hydrophone otherwise the sonar ping will miss).
3_ Keep tailing the sound contact until the weather clears up.

If you think you don't have enough time or made a soup of it, let the vessel pass and try again with more distance between you and it.

Originally Posted by fastfed

using the stadimeter thing.. I level the periscope with the horizon line of the ocean and start to line the ships bottom of the hull with the top of the ship.

If I understand you correctly, you try to guesstimate how deep the target is in the water then try to put that guesstimating on top of the mast.
If so... Don't, use the artificial horizon and place that on top of the mast (or any part according to the identifications book).
If I didn't, my mistake....

Before I attack a vessel I make sure I know which target I'm looking at, its speed and it heading and preset it in the TDC, I didn't send it though.
I start my attack 5Nm in front of my target and go to periscope depth with scope up when I feel its getting to close to me, then wait until the silhouette (dot) is shown on the Nav.map.
Having all the necessary tools for the TDC I lock on target, switch on the PK, send preset speed to TDC (send it twice), then range and finally its true heading (send it twice as well). I even set my torpedoes at depth and open my tubes.

This however (except for the torpedoes), has a big disadvantage as I can't see nor make out its mast but every consecutive measurement taken after and specially the one's after 4000yrds gives me a near perfect solution when its time to fire my fish.

By the time its time to fire them I'm 90ft under looking at my attack map and wait for the torpedo trackline to pass 0*.
At night or in bad weather getting a good firing solution is harder because you have less time to get a good range estimate but because I already pre-set 2/3 of the solution getting good ranges by stadimeter is less stressful.

[Pisces]

Originally Posted by fastfed

...
I can do the three minute mark with my sonar guy, but thats not always doable in every situation (When a merchant pops up out of no where you have no time) ...

You are missing the point. If you track it's position, then you can find out where it is going in the future. Then you have the advantage of dictating the place where he is attacked. You don't have to fire the torpedoes immediately!

If a merchant is popping up out of nowhere then you should reduce your time compression to give your crew a better reaction time. (But in the RFB manual they describe also a weird detection bug depending on horizon lattitude or something)

...

Then speed thing.. if I wait another minute or so and check range again, it will give me my speed right.. But even then, it shows sometimes being wayyyyy off.

it seems I could do range and speed calculations and get different results each time.

...

How long are the times between the range/bearing measurements? If you have trouble getting an accurate range, and only let the target move a few degrees in bearing in your persicope, then the target course and speed calculation will be inaccurate. It's not because you are doing it the wrong way. You are likely feeding it data that cannot be trusted. If you locked the periscope on the target, then only range is the untrusty one. Give the target more time to move around you, as time will average out the error.

[fastfed]

Thanks guys..


HertogJan, I have map contacts on and have the computer ID the target..

Here is my steps, please let me know where I'm going wrong.. Screen shots and all



This is just the practice torpedo school thing..


Im at P depth..

Sonar spots a contact,



I tell him to follow him, so its smooth

I mark the location



start my timer, wait till 3 min. and mark again

and measure



FWIW, this is not accurate, didn't really time it, just wanted to give you all an Idea of how I go about doing this.


Now I have the targets speed.. Or do I???


Now I have to get the AOB, which is where I suck at badly!!!

I understand the idea of it and get the concept, I just can't figure it out, even with map contacts, lol


Sadly for some reason with this test mission, it doesn't show the black dot, so just make believe its there.. this is what I do



I go in front of the contact, I angle which was I think he's going and stop at the middle/end of the contact.



Now I go straight to the middle of MY sub



I now have a number of 65, right..

So.. I know he's going to the right of me so I know now to position the AOB dial that way and bring it to the number of 65... right?

So.. First thing I do now, is go into my periscope and lock on the target and id it.

Once I get the ID, I then set the speed that I calculated which was 13 (I know it wasn't accurate, just giving you an Idea of my process)



and hit the little red button on the top to send it to the tdc.. I sometimes click that red button a bunch of times to make sure its locking.. I dunno, I saw a video where a guy explained its buggy sometimes?

So now I got the speed in there I now hit the PK button



Now time to set the AOB

of 65



Then I hit the red button two times to send it to the TDC

time for the range.. right



putting the center of the scope to where I "think" the ships bottom is in the water

then hit the stedi button



I bring it down JUST UNTIL that left pole hits the bottom of the image and let go, then hit the red button


I check the Attack map to see which way my torps will go.



doesn't look bad IMO.

Fire all 4


and...



yep..

Missed.

Even though I didn't do my speed right, if anything I put a speed of 13 or something, IMO that ship goes much faster, so I should of missed rear anyway.

What am I doing wrong.

[TorpX]

fastfed,

I can't tell much from the chart pics, but looking at the P/S view, I can see a problem. You determined the AoB to be 65, but in the screen shot it looks like it is close to 90. I have no idea what the speed might be. How are you estimating speed? If you rely on the red button feature, know that it is known to be inaccurate. This is especially true, when you are using it over short time intervals.

Honestly, I would not try to learn MT with the stock training mission. It is a very hard, and unrealistic set-up. There is not sufficient time to check data or properly develop the approach. There must be better missions that can be used for this purpose.



About the range finders:

I think people are confusing range finders that have two optical apertures separated by a significant distance (a meter or more?), and the periscope stadimeter. Such range finders didn't rely on knowing the height of the target since the range finder itself provided the base of the triangle (of known length), but the P/S has only one optic and must use the height of the target, which must be estimated beforehand, to estimate the range. Obviously, this has it's drawbacks.

I did read some time ago, about the British having a dual optic range finder for their subs, but I am not 100% sure about this. It would certainly be a nice item to have. The USN eventually solved the problem with the RADAR periscope.

[fastfed]

the angle said 65..

Am I supposed to multiply it or something? Or divide it?

I'm so lost, this suck

[magic452]

The problem with that school mission is that you are just too close to the target to get all the data you need in just one try. That is why I suggested doing a war patrol, you have more time that way.

When you do the three minute rule, do it twice if you can and connect all the Xs, That line you drew to get speed is also the target course line. You must extend the target course line way out there past your boat.
Put the center of the compass rose some were on the course line ahead of the target and than read the number where the course line crosses the outside of the compass rose. That is the target course in degrees. To get the Aob you need to draw a line from the target to the bow of your boat and measure the angle between that line and the target course line.

The big problem with getting AoB this way is by the time you get it entered into the TDC it is no longer correct as the target has moved from where you just took the measurements and if your boat is also moving the error is even bigger. That is why I suggested the method I use in my earlier post, setting the target course into the TDC instead of just AoB.
On the left top dial the bow of the little ship should point to the target course line you just measured, unless the target changes speed or course that will stay the same.

If you look at pic #6 you posted you can see that the target course line does not match the red line you just drew. That red line is wrong and so is the 65°

If you came up with a speed of 13 knots you did something wrong, the speed as I recall should be 10 knots.

Once you have the speed and the AoB you turn on the PK and than input the data in this order, first speed send to TDC second AoB Send to TDC and last range/bearing and send to TDC twice.

I'll load up the game and take some screen shots.

Magic

[Sniper297]

Yeah, you probably do have angle on the bow confused. What that is, AOB is YOUR position RELATIVE TO HIM, in other words how YOU would be reported if a lookout on the other ship saw you.



I chopped the scope view out to make this smaller. The left side is the main part of the TDC, bottom dial is your sub, top is the target. The inner ring is the relative bearing, which US specified in 360 degrees, Europeans generally used "RED 90" for a 270 degree relative bearing (port beam) and "GREEN 90" for a 90 (starboard beam). The outer circle is the true bearing, relative to the north pole rather than ship's bow.

The arrow pointer in the lower dial is the gyro angle, showing how much the torpedoes would have to turn after being fired - after all you're shooting straight out of the bow or stern tubes, and the fish will run straight for 200 to 300 yards before turning to the heading set for them by the TDC. The pointer arrow on the upper dial shows the angle that the torpedo will strike the target ship assuming no change in target course or speed. Obviously this is far out of range, but the angle on the bow is starboard 105, since his speed is 12 knots the torpedoes are chasing from behind and would hit about 128 degrees.



Here I've turned the sub around to head toward him, note the angle on the bow hasn't changed much, since I haven't moved very much relative to him - if he saw me he would still be looking in approximately the same direction, just a little aft of his starboard beam.

In this shot;



You have a 60 degree gyro angle, in other words the torpedoes have to make a 60 degree right turn after leaving the tubes. Up to 30 degrees is okay if you have to, but the closer you can get to a zero gyro angle shot the better, since the further the fish need to turn the bigger the minor errors get magnified. So in that situation you're much better turning toward the track (or away if it's a stern shot) to get your sub lined up as close to 90 degrees to the target track as you can. Then set the AOB for about 80, and if you're perpendicular to the track it will be about 80 at the time you shoot.

Main reason for all the fooling around with the AOB in the beginning is to figure out his course - the Holy Grail of the attack is to draw his track, draw a perpendicular line 1000 yards off the track, then get there before he does and position yourself 1000 yards off the track facing toward the track at 90 degrees. Then just wait for him to reach the firing position and shoot.

[magic452]

The training mission is all but useless for learning manual targeting, you really need to go out and find a ship that is farther away so you have the time do do all this. Later war is better as you have Radar and thus more time. The firing solution you came up with is terrible, you are shooting way past what would be a good shot for the reasons Sniper gave.
By the time you open the torpedo doors and set the torpedoes to speed and depth, get all the data measured and input your target is long gone.
With the first SS I have not come even close to a firing solution and the target is already at the point I should have shot. Actually the torpedoes should have already have hit.

Here is a SS of how to get speed and AoB and the target course

This is the 3 minute rule. The circle is to get speed 9 knots.
The extended line is the target course
The red lines are to measure the AoB but as I said this will not be right by the time you enter it as the target will have moved.
Here I got 72° AoB. Don't mix up degrees of AoB with the target course which is 100°
The 72° AoB is only good for that exact moment in time as the target moves it will change. The 100° course will stay the same


Here is how to measure the target course, the course is 100° where the rose crosses the course line. This is what you want the TDC to say once you enter AoB This 100° course will stay the same even if both you and the target are moving as long as the target doesn't change course.


This is what the TDC should look like, the ship in the left top dial will point to 10. That is a target course of 100°
To get this you turn the AoB input dial, the one on the right. Turn it to Starboard till it is close to what you see in the scope and click send to TDC.
you will see the top left dial turn. Keep adjusting the right dial and sending it to TDC till the bow on the left dial points 10 or 100°


Hope all this helps, if not post again and we will see what we can do.
Magic