would you go through with the procedure?

[GoldenRivet]

*Hypothetical*

Read the article below, answer the poll, and discuss

BERLIN (AP) - A panel of neurosurgeon's announced a breakthrough in medical technology early today in Berlin, Germany that will revolutionize the treatment of patients suffering psychological trauma. Dr. Gehirnkopf, the head of the panel announced the creation of a device capable of what the panel calls "non-invasive neuro-specific de-materialization". The helmet like device, placed onto the head of the anesthetized patient uses an extraordinarily accurate focused energy pulse to dematerialize brain matter on a molecular level effectively erasing a person's memory. In the weeks leading up to treatment, brain activity is analyzed while the patient is asked to focus on and answers questions about a specific memory. Once the center of the active part of the brain is identified within an acceptable margin of error the procedure can be scheduled.

The device is so accurate it can pinpoint the specific area of the brain responsible for retention of the memory effectively erasing the memory in question. The panel has already completed a battery of tests on a group of individuals. One of the test subjects had the memory of his address erased; he could recall the layout and look of his home, even the city in which he lived, but was completely unable to recall the number and street of his own residence. Another test subject was unable to recall her husband's name although she was still capable of identifying his face and could easily recall other details of their 20 year marriage.

The panel indicated that with multiple treatments, a rape victim, child molestation victim, or a victim of virtually any traumatic experience could essentially have all memory of the experience "deleted".

Military organizations have also shown interest in the procedure as a means of treating soldiers suffering from post traumatic stress disorder. Doctor's reason that memory of a traumatic combat experience could be erased and in turn eliminate the disorder in most cases.

"Other than the evaluations leading up to the surgery, the procedure is completed on an outpatient basis, requires no invasive incisions and leaves no visible scar tissue." says Dr. Gehirnkopf





so - if you could have a specific memory deleted... would you?

[antikristuseke]

No, and I have my fair share of fairly traumatic life events to remember.

[CCIP]

I'd rather make other people I know go through it for certain things

[Hottentot]

Originally Posted by CCIP

I'd rather make other people I know go through it for certain things

By the way, CCIP, you may not remember it now, but I loaned you 100 dollars a week ago and we agreed you'd pay me back today.

would you go through with the procedure?

Well thats a no-brainer

[antikristuseke]

That was cruel Tribesman

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

if you could have a specific memory deleted... would you?

A specific memory of my choice? If it is one that makes me a traumatized person that suffers dearly from that and is handicapped from it severly in managing my daily life - yes. Assuming of course that removal of the meory of the traumatizing event means relief from the consequences of traumatization (and that is not necessarily so linear a link as one might think). Under certain circumstances, I think that is a non-brainer. It's like asking whether one would have a cancer-infested kidney removed if that extends your life expectancy and relieves you from serious pain in the destroyed organ.

But it should not become a tool of ordinary everyday comfort-craving action. The usual negative experiences we colect in life also define us and make us what we are - in good, and in bad. The idea of the story is a somewhat extreme tool, and I think it should be reserved for extreme situations.

For the record, it seems to be unlikely that the brain is functioning the way the hypothetical articles implies.

[Skybird]

In a way many of you guys avoid to adress the original question. The hypothetical description implies that the procedure is risk-free. and the original question posted was

"so - if you could have a specific memory deleted... would you?"

No talk of general memory deleting. No talk of brain damage and risk for it involved. No talk of that it is enforce don you which memory gets deleted. The context is that you can freely chose which memory to delete, and whether to have any deletion taking place or not at all.

I ask the question differently, to illustrate the differences between the original object of the question, and the object to which many of you replied.

Can you imagine any sort of memory or experience that may be - in any sense you see worthwhile to define for the purpose of this question - so harmful or damaging or suffering-inducing to you that you wish you could just extract and delete it and not suffering from it and not being affected from it, assuming it could be done without any further health risk or chance for personality change involved?


Feel free to consider an experience of loosing a loved one. Having physical pain, or an accident. Getting raped. Witnessing disaster or humans suffering. And take into account in which way such experience may affect you in the present or your life after these experiences, how they defined them in good or bad, or may have turned you into a suffering wreck or a psychopath. Whatever.

That is the tricky part in this hypothetical question, isn't it. To what degree do not on ly comfortable, positive experiences, but also negative experiences define us for good or bad, and when is traumatization of such a nature that we would be better off if we never had experienced it? Obviously, a very subjective,. individual choice to make. Or not? I dare not to give a general answer, nor do I dare to exclude the chance that a general blueprint could be imagined.

BTW, such scenarios already are a reality. Although rather rare, hospital doctors can give you descriptions of syndroms, injuries and diseases where surgical procedures in the brain or drugs to be given to battle a serious problem, can lead to lasting personality changes, changes of habits, tastes, likes and dislikes, and loss or replacement of cognitive abilities. Often the patient is aware of the decision to be made, and plays an active role in it. So why does the one agree to procedures having such consequences, and another not? That would be a third way to ask the original question, maybe.

[Takeda Shingen]

Skybird, I reject your view that past trauma renders every individual a suffering wreck or psychopath, which seems to be your general belief, both stated in this thread and in others. Painful memories are part of who I am as well. I would not have the procedure done.

EDIT: The procedure theorized is something I would compare to mental liposuction. As real liposuction will remove fat and make you thinner, it will ironically, not make you any healthier. Your plaque build-up, cholestorol, diabetes, etc, will remain. You've addressed only the superficial. This theorized procedure will remove your bad memories, leaving only a bland euphoria. It sounds like a less traumatic lobotomy. It's not something that I would be comfortable with.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by Takeda Shingen

Skybird, I reject your view that past trauma renders every individual a suffering wreck or psychopath, which seems to be your general belief, both stated in this thread and in others.

Thats something you read into it. I cannot recall that I made any quantitative assessment that allows the conclusion that I think every traumatization leads to utmost existential breakdown. As a matter of fact traumatization can come in many shades, forms and grades of severity. Thats why studies seriously researching on them often do - at least should - include the definitions of grades or diagnostic keys on which the researchers based when categorizing different grades of traumata.

Painful memories are part of who I am as well. I would not have the procedure done.

Yes. I hinted at that myself two posts above. But pain can have different degrees of intensity, from pain you can bear, to pain that makes you breaking down and loosing your mind and senses, and/or leads to social and psychic handicaps that let your social life collapse and turn your life into a mess, even lead to changes in your personality. I think one of the links I gave in the thread on PTSD even illustrates cases they examined where traumatization that became chronic and got not treated led to both physical changes in the brain structure (loss of grey matter in the brain, with possible decline of IQ as well although that is not always the case), and lasting personality changes.

That extends the original question of this thread here by a whole new dimension. Are you still "yourself" if your suffering is such that it already has turned you into a different person?

EDIT: The procedure theorized is something I would compare to mental liposuction. As real liposuction will remove fat and make you thinner, it will ironically, not make you any healthier. Your plaque build-up, cholestorol, diabetes, etc, will remain. You've addressed only the superficial. This theorized procedure will remove your bad memories, leaving only a bland euphoria. It sounds like a less traumatic lobotomy. It's not something that I would be comfortable with.

A liposuction it would be if memories get extracted for the mere purpose of heaving it easy, for comfort, in other word: for reasons that would fall under the label of luxury. But when memories get extracted that are so traumatizing that they affect your cardiovascular health, your personality, your brain, your IQ? I think then it more compares to the extraction of cancer tumurs in a fight for your very life, or to lessen incredible physical pain.

I read about this American idiot of a senator who recently should have said that when a women got raped and gets pregnant, then it was God's will (no religious debate intended, mind you). I now try to imagine the victim of such an attack. And when (and why) some victims may wish they could just "forget" that memory of such an attack, while others maybe would not. Can a clear criterion be given that decides when such a memory helps you to realize your "real" nature, and when it hinders you? Can one really say that easily "But that experience of having gotten raped just defines her what she afterwards is, after the rape?" That would sound as bright an answer to me as the remark of that senator.

[Takeda Shingen]

Originally Posted by Skybird

Thats something you read into it. I cannot recall that I made any quantitative assessment that allows the conclusion that I think every traumatization leads to utmost existential breakdown. As a matter of fact traumatization can come in many shades, forms and grades of severity. Thats why studies seriously researching on them often do - at least should - include the definitions of grades or diagnostic keys on which the researchers based when categorizing different grades of traumata.

You're substituting philosophy for science.

Yes. I hinted at that myself two posts above. But pain can have different degrees of intensity, from pain you can bear, to pain that makes you breaking down and loosing your mind and senses, and/or leads to social and psychic handicaps that let your social life collapse and turn your life into a mess, even lead to changes in your personality. I think one of the links I gave in the thread on PTSD even illustrates cases they examined where traumatization that became chronic and got not treated led to both physical changes in the brain structure (loss of grey matter in the brain, with possible decline of IQ as well although that is not always the case), and lasting personality changes.

That extends the original question of this thread here by a whole new dimension. Are you still "yourself" if your suffering is such that it already has turned you into a different person?

Again, this is philosophy substituted for science, but I will play along. Clearly the only time that man is not shaped by his experience is when he is in the womb. Is the ultimate goal then to return man to his native prenatal state? It's the only time that you're not going to have suffering.

A liposuction it would be if memories get extracted for the mere purpose of heaving it easy, for comfort, in other word: for reasons that would fall under the label of luxury. But when memories get extracted that are so traumatizing that they affect your cardiovascular health, your personality, your brain, your IQ? I think then it more compares to the extraction of cancer tumurs in a fight for your very life, or to lessen incredible physical pain.

The comparison is that it is an unnatural method for extracting the unwanted. As it is natural to have memories, to wipe the memory to remove those memories is unnatural in the almost Orwellian sense. What of the repeat criminal offender? Can we alter his brain to make him a law-abiding citizen? What of the pedophile? Or the white supremacist, who holds views that are destructive to the running of society. What of your image of the Muslim? Can we alter his brain to make him a non-Muslim? Those things could be done for the common good, and the individual in each case could be made into a happy, productive model citizen.

That's quite a Pandora's box that you're eager to kick open.

I read about this American idiot of a senator who recently should have said that when a women got raped and gets pregnant, then it was God's will (no religious debate intended, mind you). I now try to imagine the victim of such an attack. And when (and why) some victims may wish they could just "forget" that memory of such an attack, while others maybe would not. Can a clear criterion be given that decides when such a memory helps you to realize your "real" nature, and when it hinders you? Can one really say that easily "But that experience of having gotten raped just defines her what she afterwards is, after the rape?" That would sound as bright an answer to me as the remark of that senator.

Strawman argument.

[Task Force]

If I have something I wanted to forget, Id do it. (of course, not for something simple)

But I don't have to worry about it, as my brain likes to forget things without any procedure!