And nobody seems to care: - Page 3

03-24-11, 12:12 AM

I have never understood the theories on the Japanese. As far as history can go it has proven to never underestimate them.

The simple truth of the matter is they deceived us and we made mistakes. Then they proceeded to kick our hind quarters half way round the globe till a streak of luck went in our favor and we sank four flat tops. The War in the Pacific IMHO was far more brutal than Europe. The Japanese fight to the absolute last, add to their since of duty and warrior pride.

I feel it could have very easily last decades had it not been for the atom bomb. I had always heard the FDR theories but always thought they had started in the 60s. I had always envisioned the US as 100% united. Guess that was just my naïvety.

Catfish · 03-24-11, 06:13 AM

Edited - you asked for it.

Teroristic "attacks" or assassinations, look for "state terrorism" and Operation "Gladio".
" ... You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent
people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was
quite simple: to force ... the public to turn to the state to ask for
greater security. ..."
" [...] the essence of Operation Gladio, a decades-long covert campaign
of terrorism and deceit directed by the intelligence services of the West
-- against their own populations. Hundreds of innocent people were killed
or maimed in terrorist attacks -- on train stations, supermarkets, cafes
and offices -- which were then blamed on "leftist subversives" or other
political opponents [...]"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio
From another source:
Pentagon document, Field Manual FM 30-31B:
The methodology for launching terrorist attacks in nations that "do not react with sufficient effectiveness" against "communist subversion."
A dangerous moment comes when leftist groups "renounce the use of force" and embrace the democratic process. It is then that "U.S. army intelligence must have the means of launching special operations which will convince Host Country Governments and public opinion of the reality of the insurgent danger."
This was in the 1960ies, but has meanwhile turned against own government in case it is not strongly conservative, or "left".

The OSS and what became of it (OSS - CIA)
http://wais.stanford.edu/USA/us_supp...ators8303.html
(you might also find evidence for "human research" on US prisoners, related to a Malaria vaccine post WW2, just like "the Nazis" did).
Then look for drills against terror attacks, before 9/11, and what was proposed exactly as a practice. In Spain they knew there was a practice going on, only the bombs did really explode (audio tracks of the security in charge whoo could not believe what was happening present everywhere) - one of the Gladio successor's exercises mentioned was the terrorist attack on the railway in Spain. You don't need much clicks to find the information if you want to know.

Real terrorists, but not "Al Quaida":

Pierre-Henry Bunel, Former French Military Intelligence:
"The truth is, there is no islamic army or terrorist group called Al Quaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity. .. The country behind this propaganda is the US."

He might have better said, the CIA. Even the US government is not always aware of what is being done in the inner circles, who see themselves as standing above governments that come and go, constitutional law and jurisdiction.
The term terrorist is an empty distinction. There is the pretense of a fictional "Al Quaida"-named terrorist world conspiracy against the West, but it actually was the name of a database of the US-supported Mudjahedin in the 1980ies. There are single terrorist group copycats who believe that and will forever undersign their own terroristic acts with "Al Quaida" taking responsibility (maybe they think it makes them important), and not only the US sec services have a good laugh at that.

03-24-11, 11:42 AM

Ah Cat from your strategic use of quotations you must be one of the nuts?

Please shed some light into what goes on inside yalls brain. Personally I think it's some sort of disorder that makes them feel significant because only they have the answers, and it puts them on a pedistool where as without it they would just blend in.

Kind of a more annoying Emo/Hipster thing.

Believing 9/11 was a terrorist attack by nuts is to mainstream, it's obviously Bush's fault.

I'm honest to God surprised they haven't blamed the tragedy in Japan on Bush yet, but I am sure there are folks out there thinking up a story.

AVGWarhawk · 03-24-11, 11:57 AM

Quote:

I'm honest to God surprised they haven't blamed the tragedy in Japan on Bush yet, but I am sure there are folks out there thinking up a story.

03-24-11, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Ah Cat from your strategic use of quotations you must be one of the nuts?

Strategic use of quotations "islam says latin"

Matador.es · 03-24-11, 02:25 PM

I personally think it is genius to express that you have lived with Islam in other countries then the USA when you’re in contact with foreign nations. I think that with doing so he pretty much slams the door to the most used comment to/ against the USA by most third world, bare feet banana republics.

Face it, most of them think America is an arrogant nation who thinks they are so genius the way they are that if the hole world would be like the USA the world would be perfect. This while the USA does not know anything about their culture and way of living. Right, you might think otherwise, but the issue is that many (amongst moslims) do think in this “negative” way.

With the stating he has a background as the ones he is talking to Obama will create a certain “equality” after which everthing he says will have twice the impact.

I must admit, that I don’t think it would be possible in Holland for a not native Dutch person to become prime minister. It is not allowed to be a politician (starting from local government) with a double passport, like Dutch and German. Or, Dutch and Moroccan, which is a bigger problem.

Catfish · 03-24-11, 06:03 PM

Bumped because nobody seems to care

- edited my post ^^ - discuss ?

Platapus · 03-24-11, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Torplexed

The other popular theory of the time was that the attack was carried out in German planes with Japanese markings.

It is now clear.

I watched Tora Tora Tora and many of those aircraft were T-6 Texans

So it was a conspiracy

tater · 03-24-11, 07:13 PM

To be fair, what Turner said was actually true in the "big picture" sense, if not the individual engagement sense. The overall feeling in the USN well before the war was that Japan could not possibly win. We told them as much, and very accurately, that they might win battles at the beginning, but every lose would sink them in a hole, and we'd continue to get stronger until their country was destroyed. (I can dig up the quote from a US Admiral to a Japanese diplomat (also an Admiral) in 1940).

I don;t think people with this "big picture" view automatically assumed the IJN was crap, but instead that it didn't matter if they were good or not, they didn't have enough staying power to matter in the long term.

Torplexed · 03-24-11, 07:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tater

To be fair, what Turner said was actually true in the "big picture" sense, if not the individual engagement sense. The overall feeling in the USN well before the war was that Japan could not possibly win. We told them as much, and very accurately, that they might win battles at the beginning, but every lose would sink them in a hole, and we'd continue to get stronger until their country was destroyed. (I can dig up the quote from a US Admiral to a Japanese diplomat (also an Admiral) in 1940).

Likely it was Chief of Naval Operations, Admiral Harold Stark who spelled it out to the Japanese ambassador:

"While you may have your initial successes, due to timing and surprise, the time will come when you too will have your losses, but there will be this great difference. You will not only be unable to make up your losses but will grow weaker as time goes on, while on the other hand we will not only make up our losses but will grow stronger as time goes on. It is inevitable that we will crush before we are through with you."

03-24-11, 06:13 AM	#32
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Edited - you asked for it. Teroristic "attacks" or assassinations, look for "state terrorism" and Operation "Gladio". " ... You had to attack civilians, the people, women, children, innocent people, unknown people far removed from any political game. The reason was quite simple: to force ... the public to turn to the state to ask for greater security. ..." " [...] the essence of Operation Gladio, a decades-long covert campaign of terrorism and deceit directed by the intelligence services of the West -- against their own populations. Hundreds of innocent people were killed or maimed in terrorist attacks -- on train stations, supermarkets, cafes and offices -- which were then blamed on "leftist subversives" or other political opponents [...]" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Gladio From another source: Pentagon document, Field Manual FM 30-31B: The methodology for launching terrorist attacks in nations that "do not react with sufficient effectiveness" against "communist subversion." A dangerous moment comes when leftist groups "renounce the use of force" and embrace the democratic process. It is then that "U.S. army intelligence must have the means of launching special operations which will convince Host Country Governments and public opinion of the reality of the insurgent danger." This was in the 1960ies, but has meanwhile turned against own government in case it is not strongly conservative, or "left". The OSS and what became of it (OSS - CIA) http://wais.stanford.edu/USA/us_supp...ators8303.html (you might also find evidence for "human research" on US prisoners, related to a Malaria vaccine post WW2, just like "the Nazis" did). Then look for drills against terror attacks, before 9/11, and what was proposed exactly as a practice. In Spain they knew there was a practice going on, only the bombs did really explode (audio tracks of the security in charge whoo could not believe what was happening present everywhere) - one of the Gladio successor's exercises mentioned was the terrorist attack on the railway in Spain. You don't need much clicks to find the information if you want to know. Real terrorists, but not "Al Quaida": Pierre-Henry Bunel, Former French Military Intelligence: "The truth is, there is no islamic army or terrorist group called Al Quaida. And any informed intelligence officer knows this. But there is a propaganda campaign to make the public believe in the presence of an identified entity. .. The country behind this propaganda is the US." He might have better said, the CIA. Even the US government is not always aware of what is being done in the inner circles, who see themselves as standing above governments that come and go, constitutional law and jurisdiction. The term terrorist is an empty distinction. There is the pretense of a fictional "Al Quaida"-named terrorist world conspiracy against the West, but it actually was the name of a database of the US-supported Mudjahedin in the 1980ies. There are single terrorist group copycats who believe that and will forever undersign their own terroristic acts with "Al Quaida" taking responsibility (maybe they think it makes them important), and not only the US sec services have a good laugh at that. Last edited by Catfish; 03-24-11 at 05:59 PM.

03-24-11, 02:25 PM	#36
Matador.es Chief Join Date: Feb 2010 Posts: 327 Downloads: 30 Uploads: 0	I personally think it is genius to express that you have lived with Islam in other countries then the USA when you’re in contact with foreign nations. I think that with doing so he pretty much slams the door to the most used comment to/ against the USA by most third world, bare feet banana republics. Face it, most of them think America is an arrogant nation who thinks they are so genius the way they are that if the hole world would be like the USA the world would be perfect. This while the USA does not know anything about their culture and way of living. Right, you might think otherwise, but the issue is that many (amongst moslims) do think in this “negative” way. With the stating he has a background as the ones he is talking to Obama will create a certain “equality” after which everthing he says will have twice the impact. I must admit, that I don’t think it would be possible in Holland for a not native Dutch person to become prime minister. It is not allowed to be a politician (starting from local government) with a double passport, like Dutch and German. Or, Dutch and Moroccan, which is a bigger problem. Last edited by Matador.es; 03-24-11 at 02:35 PM.

03-24-11, 07:13 PM	#39
tater Navy Seal Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: New Mexico, USA Posts: 9,023 Downloads: 8 Uploads: 2	To be fair, what Turner said was actually true in the "big picture" sense, if not the individual engagement sense. The overall feeling in the USN well before the war was that Japan could not possibly win. We told them as much, and very accurately, that they might win battles at the beginning, but every lose would sink them in a hole, and we'd continue to get stronger until their country was destroyed. (I can dig up the quote from a US Admiral to a Japanese diplomat (also an Admiral) in 1940). I don;t think people with this "big picture" view automatically assumed the IJN was crap, but instead that it didn't matter if they were good or not, they didn't have enough staying power to matter in the long term. __________________ "Government, even in its best state, is but a necessary evil; in its worst state, an intolerable one." — Thomas Paine

03-24-11, 12:12 AM	#31
Slyguy3129 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	I have never understood the theories on the Japanese. As far as history can go it has proven to never underestimate them. The simple truth of the matter is they deceived us and we made mistakes. Then they proceeded to kick our hind quarters half way round the globe till a streak of luck went in our favor and we sank four flat tops. The War in the Pacific IMHO was far more brutal than Europe. The Japanese fight to the absolute last, add to their since of duty and warrior pride. I feel it could have very easily last decades had it not been for the atom bomb. I had always heard the FDR theories but always thought they had started in the 60s. I had always envisioned the US as 100% united. Guess that was just my naïvety.

03-24-11, 11:42 AM	#33
Slyguy3129 Stowaway Posts: n/a Downloads: Uploads:	Ah Cat from your strategic use of quotations you must be one of the nuts? Please shed some light into what goes on inside yalls brain. Personally I think it's some sort of disorder that makes them feel significant because only they have the answers, and it puts them on a pedistool where as without it they would just blend in. Kind of a more annoying Emo/Hipster thing. Believing 9/11 was a terrorist attack by nuts is to mainstream, it's obviously Bush's fault. I'm honest to God surprised they haven't blamed the tragedy in Japan on Bush yet, but I am sure there are folks out there thinking up a story.

03-24-11, 06:03 PM	#37
Catfish Dipped Squirrel Operative Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: ..where the ocean meets the sky Posts: 17,767 Downloads: 38 Uploads: 0	Bumped because nobody seems to care - edited my post ^^ - discuss ?