1WO means...

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by JScones

There are no direct equivalents to Fähnrich and Oberfähnrich in any non-German based armed force. They are strictly neither ensigns or midshipmen in the US or UK sense. They can be, however, considered a subset of midshipman for the purpose of easy explanation.

Yeah, there's really no term/rank that matches up exactly. "Midshipmen" just seems like the handiest term to use to indicate their relative status (at least at Fähnrich or above) when serving on a u-boat.

[Sailor Steve]

Maybe it's German for "Noob".

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

Maybe it's German for "Noob".

[Draka]

For a real detailed chart with illustrations, go to this web site:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Now drill down by the links on the left - Uniformen - Kriegsmarine - Kriegsmarine Laufbahnen/detailed rank system (no graphics)

This is the most extensive chart I have EVER seen on this - and the other pages on this site amplify on it.


p.s. Try getting ALL those ranks in SH3!!!

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

He's an Oberleutnant (Ing.), an engineering officer, and the Leitender Ingenieur (leading engineer) on the boat. An Oblt z. See would be a line officer, one who was in the chain of command. While the LI might be the second most important officer on a u-boat (after the kommandant) in a practical sense because his duties were so vital and all-encompassing in technical matters, he would never be in line for a command regardless of his rank. He might actually have the same rank as the kommandant, nevertheless a lower-ranking 1WO would be next in line of command if the kommandant were killed or incapacitated.

Engineering officers had a cogwheel (?) insignia on their uniforms, rather than a star, to indicate their specialty and distinguish them from line officers.

That's what I though, I've very familiar with the shoulder boards as I've got a few (real ones), getting a good or clear look at most of them is tough; especially when each different jacket/uniform they have might have a slightly different set of pips or the shoulder boards themselves were different - there were two types of shoulder boards, ones that were sewn onto the garment and a slip on type that were easy to take on or off (much rarer to find). The cogwheel is indeed for engineering, actually the graphics used in SH3 for all the qualifications are exactly like what the real ones were.

One thing I never understood is why he's not eligible for getting his own ship/command. I can understand that the medic or a radioman wouldn't be due to their specialized training and wouldn't be familiar with the workings of the ship. An engineer would know the ship inside and out, and be next to the captain in situations were he was issuing orders (like when moving while submerged). In the US the captain of a carrier is usually a (former) pilot, airboss, etc or on a BB the captain could come from any number of trades.

Something I find interesting, the guy who is always writting the love letters to his girlfriend is actually a Fanrich (at one point he's laying on his stomach on a bunk and can see the shoulder board clearly. It would make him senior to all the other NCO's but he's never treated as such.

[JScones]

Originally Posted by Tessa

One thing I never understood is why he's not eligible for getting his own ship/command. I can understand that the medic or a radioman wouldn't be due to their specialized training and wouldn't be familiar with the workings of the ship.

Because he joined the engineering officer stream, not the line officer stream. Different training, different skills, different duty statement. He's trained as an engineer, not as a leader. The mere fact he signed up in the engineering stream might even imply that he wants nothing to do with commanding a boat, in much the same way that a guy signing up in the line officer stream might want nothing to do with tinkering with boat engines.

He's not just an officer who happens to have an engineering qualification, he's a career engineer.

Originally Posted by Tessa

An engineer would know the ship inside and out, and be next to the captain in situations were he was issuing orders (like when moving while submerged).

Knowing the mechanics of the ship does not automatically make him an effective leader. Completely different focus.

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

I don't know that Kriechbaum's rank is ever specifically indicated in the movie, unless it's possible to determine what it was from looking at what's shown of him in uniform with visible insignia. He would most likely be a high-ranking NCO. Given what I've read it seems like once an enlisted man was put on a particular track with regard to specialty training, he was more likely to be thought of in terms of his position within that specialty than anything else.

The senior NCOs on a uboat (this is taken from Mulligan's Neither Sharks Nor Wolves and mirrors what I've found elsewhere) in terms of official "rank" would most likely be "Oberfeldwebel, officially designated (but rarely called) Unteroffiziere mit Portepee (literally "non-commissioned officers with sword-knot") who performed the functions equivalent to those of warrant officers, a category gradually dropped by the German navy by 1936."

These guys would have been enlisted men, ranking above all the other enlisted men on board, but not COs and not eligible for a CO rank (altho as I noted before, there were some Volksoffiziere - "people's officers" - men who rose through the ranks of enlisted men and for one reason or another eventually received a commission). But the job description would become the individual's primary designation, rather than his rank, which although recognized in terms of his authority on board overall is less likely to factor in to what he's called in the everyday language of the service. For instance, nobody ever addresses Kriechbaum as "Herr Oberfeldwebel" or whatever his actual rank was. He's "Herr Obersteuermann," and as der Alte's very pointed use of the term on one occasion illustrates, that designation alone is more than enough to indicate his place in the scheme of things.

And I don't think it's surprising that, in a situation where technical expertise in one field or another was of such vital importance, a crewman's special training and experience in his field would take precedence in everyday parlance over everything else.

The senior NCOs who made up this group aboard the typical boat would consist of, at the very least, the Obersteuermann (chief navigator), a Bootsmann or Oberbootsmann (the "nummer eins" I referred to earlier, responsible for crew discipline), a Diesel Obermaschinist and an Elektro Obermaschinist (directly subordinate to the LI and responsible for the diesel engines and electric motors/batteries respectively).

In Das Boot, these would be Kriechbaum, Lamprecht (or Lumprecht - anyway, the guy who gives Werner the tour of the boat), Johann, and the one other guy who I don't think is ever named. But I assume he is the guy you see sitting in the background, framed between Werner and the 2WO, sitting in the senior NCOs' quarters and facing the o-messe, gaily singing along with the Tipperary song. Like the other three who are named, as a senior NCO he would have eaten and slept in that compartment. There's also a scene when they are frantically engaged in damage control (may have been at Gibraltar) where the LI is working on something, I think in the diesel room, and there's a close-up of him ordering another man who has just appeared on the scene to go check the batteries (?) and I'm pretty sure he addresses him as "E-Maschinist." A bit later I think we see this same guy either performing or supervising the work on the batteries, before the LI arrives to go down to look for himself. I'm pretty sure this guy would be the Elektro Obermaschinist since the upkeep and repair of the batteries would have been among his primary duties on board.

In conclusion, I have seen Das Boot way too many times.

You can never see it too many times. Frequently I put it on the TV when I'm playing SH as good background mood; though not paying attention to the whole movie (just watching w/o multitasking) I'd probably say the discs have been played at least 250+ times.

The cool thing about the crew on the ships is that the ship is really one that is (at the time) part of the old bunch. You've got several Oberleutnant's, and a lot of mid ranking NCO's. The crew was very experienced and everyone knew what to do and how to do it, wouldn't have been any on the job training or noobs on board like it was later in the war.

The navigator and Joahan are the two most senior NCO's that I can make out, both are oberfeldwebels and the one fanrich (Joahans high rank partly explains why he was so scarred of getting court-marshalled, the other part being its a court-marshall, not an experience any soldier wants to go through). In the modern navy I think that both their converted ranks would be a senior chief petty officer, or a E-8 (just 1 step below the highest NCO rank possible). To make that rank today you're looking of at least 20 years, probably would get it between 22-25 unless they were in a lot a major combat. For Joahan to get busted back down to an E-1 Matrose.

Though its scanned from an old and hard to find book here's a good visual on how the shoulder boards looked:




In the middle of the board would be their trade, same as the ones used in SH for qualifications. What can get confusing is that there a variant that was used on the devices, the common ones had just the trade insignia, and sometimes you'll see ones with an anchor and the trade is overlaid (though constuction is one-piece) on top of the anchor. While there's been several posted already, this chart is the best one I've ever seen for comparing the ranks:

http://ww2db.com/other.php?other_id=30

It's got the British, US and even Japanese ranks all laid out with warrant officers and everything (just no images).

[Tessa]

Originally Posted by JScones

Because he joined the engineering officer stream, not the line officer stream. Different training, different skills, different duty statement. He's trained as an engineer, not as a leader. The mere fact he signed up in the engineering stream might even imply that he wants nothing to do with commanding a boat, in much the same way that a guy signing up in the line officer stream might want nothing to do with tinkering with boat engines.

He's not just an officer who happens to have an engineering qualification, he's a career engineer.

It makes more sense now, was thinking about some friends of mine that are on active duty and a couple are specialist in their field (not just someone that's doing that job because they've been assigned to it) and all they do and focus on is their trade/rating. They can still fire a rifle, but would have no clue how to direct artillery fire or some other common position. Just seems strange to go the officer/command route you choose no trade at all and are like a gopher until you get admitted to OCS.

[Mittelwaechter]

@sailor steve

Obersteuermann is the correct naming for Kriechbaum's rank.
He follows a Steuermann (Navigator) career - a specialist career - and the rank is equivalent to Oberfeldwebel (master sergeant) in the common army ranking system.
A radio operator career (Funker in German) of the same rank would be Oberfunkmeister.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Draka

For a real detailed chart with illustrations, go to this web site:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Now drill down by the links on the left - Uniformen - Kriegsmarine - Kriegsmarine Laufbahnen/detailed rank system (no graphics)

This is the most extensive chart I have EVER seen on this - and the other pages on this site amplify on it.


p.s. Try getting ALL those ranks in SH3!!!

Wow, thanks. That is awesome.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by Tessa

Something I find interesting, the guy who is always writting the love letters to his girlfriend is actually a Fanrich (at one point he's laying on his stomach on a bunk and can see the shoulder board clearly. It would make him senior to all the other NCO's but he's never treated as such.

I don't think someone at the rank would be considered senior to all the NCOs - he's on the track to be a CO, but not there yet, and thus wouldn't get "officer status" in the field. As noted upthread there's really no exact equivalent for the rank in US/UK navy terms but it seems like his position would be roughly the same as a midshipman in the US Navy. As a Fähnrich and not an Oberfähnrich he'd probably fall right where his bunk assignment indicates, among the less-senior NCOs.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Tessa

It makes more sense now, was thinking about some friends of mine that are on active duty and a couple are specialist in their field (not just someone that's doing that job because they've been assigned to it) and all they do and focus on is their trade/rating. They can still fire a rifle, but would have no clue how to direct artillery fire or some other common position. Just seems strange to go the officer/command route you choose no trade at all and are like a gopher until you get admitted to OCS.

Where are you from? I ask because the system used in the KM is paralleled in the Royal Navy. In the sailing-ship days a gunner was considered something of a wizard, with magical abilities that separated him from real sailors; hence he was exempt from all regular sailor duties.

When steam came into common use the same thing happened. An engineer is not a real sailor, which means he is both more and less than the regular command structure. He isn't trained in anything to do with the running of the ship, and other officers aren't trained in engineering.

The reason I asked where you are from is that if you are American, none of that makes sense, because in the US navy officers aren't specialists. On my ship we had a Radio Officer; over him was a Comm officer, and over him was the XO. We also had an engineering officer, but these were all officers learning different jobs, and they all had pretty much the same career track, and barring stupid mistakes and bad luck they would all someday be an exec and then a captain.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Mittelwaechter

@sailor steve

Obersteuermann is the correct naming for Kriechbaum's rank.
He follows a Steuermann (Navigator) career - a specialist career - and the rank is equivalent to Oberfeldwebel (master sergeant) in the common army ranking system.
A radio operator career (Funker in German) of the same rank would be Oberfunkmeister.

Looking over the chart supplied by Draka I see that now. Thanks for the explanation, and the correction. The things we think we know...

[desirableroasted]

Originally Posted by frau kaleun

The table at the link shows the rank of Fähnrich zur See falling between the NCO ranks of Obermaat and Feldwebel; Oberfähnrich zur See falls in between the NCO ranks of Oberfeldwebel and Stabsoberfeldwebel. This would correlate reasonably well to the position of midshipmen in the modern US Navy, which seems to be somewhere between a Warrant Officer and a Chief Warrant Officer.

Love the information you are all providing; this is a highly-educational thread.

But one point: in the modern US Navy a midshipman is most certainly not somewhere between a Warrant Officer (which the Navy does not have) and a Chief Warrant Officer.

CWOs are carefully selected from the NCO ranks because of their technical expertise, and fill positions where you want an officer and a specialist (officers are expected to be generalists). Commanders love them, the NCOs and sailors love them. Junior officers don't much like them, but if they are smart they can gain a lot of knowledge.

Midshipmen are, as others have pointed out, simply officer candidates. I say "simply" because they have no function except to watch and learn. And they are not even saluted by sailors and NCOs (whereas a CWO certainly is).

So the juxtaposition on the chart is unfortunate -- the two classes have (in modern navies) nothing to do with one another.

Anyway, a digression that has little to do with the game.

[frau kaleun]

Originally Posted by desirableroasted

Love the information you are all providing; this is a highly-educational thread.

But one point: in the modern US Navy a midshipman is most certainly not somewhere between a Warrant Officer (which the Navy does not have) and a Chief Warrant Officer.

CWOs are carefully selected from the NCO ranks because of their technical expertise, and fill positions where you want an officer and a specialist (officers are expected to be generalists). Commanders love them, the NCOs and sailors love them. Junior officers don't much like them, but if they are smart they can gain a lot of knowledge.

Midshipmen are, as others have pointed out, simply officer candidates. I say "simply" because they have no function except to watch and learn. And they are not even saluted by sailors and NCOs (whereas a CWO certainly is).

So the juxtaposition on the chart is unfortunate -- the two classes have (in modern navies) nothing to do with one another.

Anyway, a digression that has little to do with the game.

Thanks for the clarification - I can't remember where I read that about midshipmen in the US Navy, only that it was trying to indicate where to place them in a theoretical hierarchy since as you noted they are not accorded the same status as an officer and are there primarily for training purposes. It was more a matter of what to compare the KM officer candidate ranks to, and where to place them on a list of ranks, since putting them in with the CO ranks seems to confuse the issue with regard to their actual status when serving as part of a typical crew.

I'm pretty sure though that Steve mentioned there being Warrant Officers during his time in the service? Which doesn't mean they're still there, but I guess I meant "modern" navy in a broader sense than just the years since then.