And why exacly does the full 3D interior add nothing to gameplay? - Page 3

kptn_kaiserhof · 01-11-10, 06:35 AM

in theory i agree that 3d compartments are just eyecandy

but fact it adds immersion and the more immersion a game has

the more a person stays inerested

Sgtmonkeynads · 01-11-10, 07:55 AM

What if they are not just eye candy this time around though.
What if the engines are down and you have to actually go back there and do something to fix the problem.
I've been dc to point where all my engineers were killed and no one else could make the engines work,,
or your cook dies, and you are the only one on ship that knows how to get the soup just right.
or will the crew starve to death, because it is no one Else's job to cook?

oscar19681 · 01-11-10, 09:31 AM

Ha! i made it into the articles/reviews on the subsim site! Any warhol was right when he said everybody will be famous for 15 minutes in there lives.

hyperion2206 · 01-11-10, 10:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

The presence of accurately modelled destroyer behavior, planes that can surprise you by dropping out of volumetric clouds, having to deal with mechanical breakdowns and a BDU that issues realistic orders does a heck of a lot more for "immersion" for me than watching a computer generated depiction of some schmoes in the bow compartment load a torpedo.

Agreed! While the graphics might be cool for a short while and perhaps make you feel like you're on a U-Boat they don't make the game more realistic (realistic=challenging). I mean it's great that you can personally go to the engine room, but that doesn't help you if BDU sends you to the coast of the US with youre type II boat.

I might be wrong but I can't imagine that the devs have been given enough time and money to make the new graphics and to upgrade the AI of the enemies.

oscar19681 · 01-11-10, 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I feel it doesn't add to the gameplay because when I think of the object of the game, its to get out there and sink tonnage in spite of the Allies' countermeasures. Developer time is a limited resource, and to spend it modelling rooms that, in my opinion, don't further the ends of the game, is wasteful. With unlimited time and resources, hell yes I'd love to see a fully modelled and detailed U-boat. But at this juncture, I'd like to see that time spent on things like adding real life destroyer attacks (plaster, pineapple, raspberry, creeping attack, et al) or things like carriers having to turn into the wind to launch planes, or a realistic tide system, or a accurately modelled globe, or wolfpacks. All of those things make a heck of a lot more impact than seeing the sights inside my boat.

Have carriers turn into the wind to launch planes? Uhm how exactly would this be a priority over a full 3-d intereur when mentioning developer time is a limited resource?

Sailor Steve · 01-11-10, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgtmonkeynads

What if they are not just eye candy this time around though.
What if the engines are down and you have to actually go back there and do something to fix the problem.
I've been dc to point where all my engineers were killed and no one else could make the engines work,,

Then you are in real trouble, because in the old European navies (especially the British and German) the engineers were not part of the command structure. They were considered something like wizards, and command officers were given no engineering training. The kaleun who could fix a diesel engine was a rare thing indeed.

Quote:

or your cook dies, and you are the only one on ship that knows how to get the soup just right.
or will the crew starve to death, because it is no one Else's job to cook?

I'm sure that you might be well able to cook, but anybody can open a can of beans and burn it. They won't starve, even if you're the one who's dead.

oscar19681 · 01-11-10, 10:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FAdmiral

I, for one, would give up all the 3-d eye candy even if partly
functional to go back to the good ole days when SH2 played against
Destroyer Command. That NEVER got old like going on endless patrols
would do. The game needs to be programmed out of the box instead
of giving the box more compartments to look into.....

JIM

Nobody is stopping you from reinstalling sh-2 and destoyer command. And hell maybe you will injoy it some much that you will skip sh-5 alltogether! Personally i never played silent hunter 1 but silent hunter 2 was a huge letdown for me. The 2-d screens. The limited zoom in the exterieur view, The feeling of being the only one on the u-boat etc etc.

mookiemookie · 01-11-10, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oscar19681

Have carriers turn into the wind to launch planes? Uhm how exactly would this be a priority over a full 3-d intereur when mentioning developer time is a limited resource?

Because that's true to life warship behavior, which should be a priority over watching Marcus cook soup in the galley. One adds to the gameplay and the ultimate mission of the U-boat, the other is fluff.

01-11-10, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by oscar19681

Have carriers turn into the wind to launch planes? Uhm how exactly would this be a priority over a full 3-d intereur when mentioning developer time is a limited resource?

Perhaps because it is reasonable warship behavior and several carriers were successfully attacked by submarine when they did turn into the wind to launch. HMS Courageous and Ark Royal spring to mind off hand.

Having targets that behave like targets did is more important to my subsim experiance than any eye candy, particularly a 3-D expose of a submarine interior. But to each his own.

Good Hunting

Edit
@Mookiemookie
I was drafting my response as you hit send... Great minds think alike, heheheh?

AVGWarhawk · 01-11-10, 11:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mookiemookie

I feel it doesn't add to the gameplay because when I think of the object of the game, its to get out there and sink tonnage in spite of the Allies' countermeasures. Developer time is a limited resource, and to spend it modelling rooms that, in my opinion, don't further the ends of the game, is wasteful. With unlimited time and resources, hell yes I'd love to see a fully modelled and detailed U-boat. But at this juncture, I'd like to see that time spent on things like adding real life destroyer attacks (plaster, pineapple, raspberry, creeping attack, et al) or things like carriers having to turn into the wind to launch planes, or a realistic tide system, or a accurately modelled globe, or wolfpacks. All of those things make a heck of a lot more impact than seeing the sights inside my boat.

I would have to agree here. Concerning SH3 I went to the capt quarters probably 10 times all told. The premise of the game is to work your submarine like a captain sinking ships. This is what I spent my time doing when I'm able to fire up the game. However, some stated that having to walk through the compartments and not just clicking the hot key to get to the scope or bridge does add to the game. It adds the element of time. For those that have the time to play real time it could be very exciting. For those that like to kick around the boat talking with the crew now can. It is not all bad and does add something for some.

Funny thing is a lot asked for full scale compartments from bow to stern. Now that it is done these folks will be happy. I'm sure for each this addition will be useful for all in some form or another.

Ducimus · 01-11-10, 02:40 PM

>>And why exacly does the full 3-d interior add nothing to gameplay?

Let's say that both SH3 and SH4 have a bit more going on in the interiors then just a conning tower, control room, or radioroom. How much more, a couple more rooms, or a fully rendered interior, take your pick.

Now, how exactly is Sh3 and SH4 played? Where do you end up spending most of your time? Do you REALLY walk around the interior, smelling the "roses" as it were, the entire time. Or do you hit the shortcut key to the nav map , and hit time compression a bit more then you might realize? Point being, i'll wager that for many people, the majority of the time is spent at the nav map, and the periscope. Swapping between the two via hotkeys. Sometimes, you just get in a hurry!

My overall point being, fully rendered 3d interiors, while i admit is a wanted item in my own wish book, you can completely bypass. What you then end up looking at, is things that deal more with a simulation. Ocean current maybe? What if i want to control more aspects of the boat like what desial engine i put on battery charge? How about dive planes? Maybe i want more control over the saftey, negative, or trim tanks? I don't expect to be able to turn every little knob or dial, but from a simulation standpoint, there is a lot missing. If one was to look at sub sims in the same light as flight sims, there is alot more then can be done in terms of simulating the operation of a submarine, 3d interiors while great, do not do this. They add to a role playing element, (or immersion as people like to call it), but they do not add to the gameplay of a simulation.

On an abstract side note, there are alot of people out there who play MMORPG's, but the first thing they ask about that game is "soloablity". They spend the entire game soloing, which is counterintuitve to a game that is "massivly multiplayer". In other words, they're looking for their gaming fix in the latest and greatest title, even though it isn't really the game genre their looking for, when a sinigleplayer RPG would be more their speed such as fallout 3 or oblivion. Could it be the same here, but in a different context? There is so much emphases placed on graphics and Immersion, and so little placed on the details of a simulation by many people.

mookiemookie · 01-11-10, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randomizer

Having targets that behave like targets did is more important to my subsim experiance than any eye candy, particularly a 3-D expose of a submarine interior. But to each his own.

Regarding the Courageous:

Quote:

Courageous served with the Home Fleet in the Channel Force at the start of World War II. On 17 September 1939, under the command of Captain W. T. Mackaig-Jones, she was on an anti-submarine patrol off the coast of Ireland. Two of her four escorting destroyers had been sent to help a merchant ship under attack. During this time, Courageous was stalked for over two hours by the U-29, commanded by Kapitänleutnant Otto Schuhart. Then Courageous turned into the wind to launch her aircraft. This manoeuvre put the ship right across the bow of the U-29, which then fired three torpedoes. Two of the torpedoes struck the ship on her port side, and she capsized and sank in 15 minutes with the loss of 518 of her crew, including her captain.

(emphasis mine)

So what's that about aircraft carriers turning into the wind not being important?

floundericiousWA · 01-11-10, 03:06 PM

I think adding the time factor for reaching the conn would be valuable. I think realistic time delays for order implementation, particularly when you can see it, would be good.

This may be crazy, but imagine if your nav map was viewable without needing to "change screens"? If you could be walking past and see your current position, position of contacts, etc. without needing to change to "map view," as it were. If you wanted, you could "dock" at the map view so you can focus.

What if you could be walking to the torpedo room, look over at the map on the way, then go forward or aft, and tell the crew which torpedo tube to load first or send the XO to do it, it could give you more control (at the loss of having one of your command officers out of reach for a short time).

If you could actually order crew forward or aft to change c.g. and see them moving about...if you could "train" crew members by spending time with them inside the ship.

Deep Dive · 01-11-10, 03:23 PM

One asks "How can an air conditioner not add to the value/desirability of a car?"

Well it won't if the engine is not working how it should be or the electric system is malfunctioning all the time

I DO want an addition of a fully explorable interior which will add to the immersion big time ONLY IF the TDC , AI behaviour , Dynamic campaign are properly build and as bugless as possible

If this is the case i say YES

If all the above are sub-standard even a Tomi

engine room will be just useless for me

Tarnsman · 01-11-10, 03:26 PM

Im eagerly looking forward to a full 3-D interior, but its not the make or break for me in SH5. Im looking for a step forward in the game play, I would have been more excited if they made SH5 BOTH a Uboat and ASW Escort multiplayer sim. Tha would have been groundbreaking and would put to bed alot of concern over AI and wolfpack emulation. And really brought Silent Hunter into the 21st century.

I congratulate Ubi for persisting with the Silent Hunter franchise, its a great title with a great following and I think a lot of other titles should have been developed over the years the same way. But a full 3D interior should have been done A Long Time Ago, basically with SH3. Subs are relativly small known quantities, once 3d modling was developed in games it should have been a nobrainer -- a couple more rooms a couple more guys and this could have been in SH3. But better late than never.

Im going to buy SH5 like I have since SH2. Im sure Im going to love it, (Ive even grown to like SH4 despite the interactive step backward).But and this is a big but-- I think we should lobby for a ASW Escort add on with multiplayer interoperability. I would poney up another $50 bucks for that and buy SH6 Pacific War in 2012 too.

01-11-10, 07:55 AM	#32
Sgtmonkeynads Ships Secretary Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: MilesCity Montana Posts: 583 Downloads: 614 Uploads: 0	What if they are not just eye candy this time around though. What if the engines are down and you have to actually go back there and do something to fix the problem. I've been dc to point where all my engineers were killed and no one else could make the engines work,, or your cook dies, and you are the only one on ship that knows how to get the soup just right. or will the crew starve to death, because it is no one Else's job to cook? __________________ Just help someone.....it makes a difference

01-11-10, 09:31 AM	#33
oscar19681 Admiral Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: netherlands Posts: 2,020 Downloads: 119 Uploads: 0	Ha! i made it into the articles/reviews on the subsim site! Any warhol was right when he said everybody will be famous for 15 minutes in there lives. __________________ we live we die but death does not ends it. Jim Morrison 1943-1971

01-11-10, 03:06 PM	#43
floundericiousWA Medic Join Date: Nov 2007 Posts: 164 Downloads: 7 Uploads: 0	I think adding the time factor for reaching the conn would be valuable. I think realistic time delays for order implementation, particularly when you can see it, would be good. This may be crazy, but imagine if your nav map was viewable without needing to "change screens"? If you could be walking past and see your current position, position of contacts, etc. without needing to change to "map view," as it were. If you wanted, you could "dock" at the map view so you can focus. What if you could be walking to the torpedo room, look over at the map on the way, then go forward or aft, and tell the crew which torpedo tube to load first or send the XO to do it, it could give you more control (at the loss of having one of your command officers out of reach for a short time). If you could actually order crew forward or aft to change c.g. and see them moving about...if you could "train" crew members by spending time with them inside the ship. __________________ C.O. - USS Tambor "Defending that which is sincerely good and perfectly divine; Triumphant over death, and chance, and time..."

01-11-10, 06:35 AM	#31
kptn_kaiserhof XO Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 418 Downloads: 42 Uploads: 0	in theory i agree that 3d compartments are just eyecandy but fact it adds immersion and the more immersion a game has the more a person stays inerested

01-11-10, 02:40 PM	#41
Ducimus Rear Admiral Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 12,987 Downloads: 67 Uploads: 2	>>And why exacly does the full 3-d interior add nothing to gameplay? Let's say that both SH3 and SH4 have a bit more going on in the interiors then just a conning tower, control room, or radioroom. How much more, a couple more rooms, or a fully rendered interior, take your pick. Now, how exactly is Sh3 and SH4 played? Where do you end up spending most of your time? Do you REALLY walk around the interior, smelling the "roses" as it were, the entire time. Or do you hit the shortcut key to the nav map , and hit time compression a bit more then you might realize? Point being, i'll wager that for many people, the majority of the time is spent at the nav map, and the periscope. Swapping between the two via hotkeys. Sometimes, you just get in a hurry! My overall point being, fully rendered 3d interiors, while i admit is a wanted item in my own wish book, you can completely bypass. What you then end up looking at, is things that deal more with a simulation. Ocean current maybe? What if i want to control more aspects of the boat like what desial engine i put on battery charge? How about dive planes? Maybe i want more control over the saftey, negative, or trim tanks? I don't expect to be able to turn every little knob or dial, but from a simulation standpoint, there is a lot missing. If one was to look at sub sims in the same light as flight sims, there is alot more then can be done in terms of simulating the operation of a submarine, 3d interiors while great, do not do this. They add to a role playing element, (or immersion as people like to call it), but they do not add to the gameplay of a simulation. On an abstract side note, there are alot of people out there who play MMORPG's, but the first thing they ask about that game is "soloablity". They spend the entire game soloing, which is counterintuitve to a game that is "massivly multiplayer". In other words, they're looking for their gaming fix in the latest and greatest title, even though it isn't really the game genre their looking for, when a sinigleplayer RPG would be more their speed such as fallout 3 or oblivion. Could it be the same here, but in a different context? There is so much emphases placed on graphics and Immersion, and so little placed on the details of a simulation by many people.

01-11-10, 03:23 PM	#44
Deep Dive Watch Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Athens,Greece Posts: 22 Downloads: 18 Uploads: 0	One asks "How can an air conditioner not add to the value/desirability of a car?" Well it won't if the engine is not working how it should be or the electric system is malfunctioning all the time I DO want an addition of a fully explorable interior which will add to the immersion big time ONLY IF the TDC , AI behaviour , Dynamic campaign are properly build and as bugless as possible If this is the case i say YES If all the above are sub-standard even a Tomi engine room will be just useless for me

01-11-10, 03:26 PM	#45
Tarnsman Electrician's Mate Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 134 Downloads: 48 Uploads: 0	Im eagerly looking forward to a full 3-D interior, but its not the make or break for me in SH5. Im looking for a step forward in the game play, I would have been more excited if they made SH5 BOTH a Uboat and ASW Escort multiplayer sim. Tha would have been groundbreaking and would put to bed alot of concern over AI and wolfpack emulation. And really brought Silent Hunter into the 21st century. I congratulate Ubi for persisting with the Silent Hunter franchise, its a great title with a great following and I think a lot of other titles should have been developed over the years the same way. But a full 3D interior should have been done A Long Time Ago, basically with SH3. Subs are relativly small known quantities, once 3d modling was developed in games it should have been a nobrainer -- a couple more rooms a couple more guys and this could have been in SH3. But better late than never. Im going to buy SH5 like I have since SH2. Im sure Im going to love it, (Ive even grown to like SH4 despite the interactive step backward).But and this is a big but-- I think we should lobby for a ASW Escort add on with multiplayer interoperability. I would poney up another $50 bucks for that and buy SH6 Pacific War in 2012 too.