Shootings at Fort Hood, TX

[SS107.9MHz]

If one of his parents is from Palestine wouldn't he be palestianian in the same way as a guy who has a italan parent is an Italian and an American? Or is this another case?

Quite a few muslims serve in the US military but almost all of them make the wish that they will not be shipped to kill other muslims or even people from their native lands. If they will be made to act as interpreters they and their families will be under increased threat of assassasination. I can understand why they would feel stressed about going to war but the present situation means that the wars just continue ad infinitum and pretty much everyone in the US military/reserve/coast guard/national guard/whatever will have to rotate.

Tbh I'm surprised more of this kinds of things, soldiers going crazy and shooting other people, doesn't happen more, especially when faced with choice of going to war or courtmartial etc.

[Biggles]

I hope he will be judged by his deeds, not his color, faith, political views or anything else really. I bet he was a nice man, but what he did is inexcusable and he should be severely punished

My thoughts goes to the victims, dead and alive, and their families.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SS107.9MHz

It does seem like a unfortunate case of combined arrassment and stress meltdown due to his allocation to Iraq... THis has nothing to due with him being a muslim or a palestinian, at least in the assumption of "yeah is a muslim that made him due it"... It sems it's always more easy to find the reason we're confortable with than assessing the real reasons for what happened...

He was actually a therapist for wounded soldiers in Iraq before being comissioned there... He probably cracked after considering what he heard and what might happened to him... If he was suffering from a depression and in a delusional state he might have seen this as an act of mercy...It's messed up but it has happened before... We'll probably know more after he his questioned...

Above all, I want to send my condolences to the families of those slain today... I hope that they can cope with the loss.

PS: Skybird I can't see why a Muslim would be more unconfortable serving in the US Army than a Christian or a Jew for example... I think all these religions see Moses has a profit if aI'm not mistaken and that they must obey to the ten commandments, one of wich is "Thou shall not kill"... So I'd sy it's a level playing field here...

First, please read my very first post in here. I said clearly that I see this issue as a thing of "mental shortcircuit".

Second, I listed several things I see as contributing to the general pressure he must have felt. Amongst which maybe is what he has seen when treating wounded soldiers, like you indicate, too. Or better, what he heared, since he was a psychiatrist, not a surgeon, I always overlook this detail.

Third, the Muslim identity thing. It is probably not approriate to discuss that in this thread, and we already have been there three years ago when we talked about how the Air Force systematically has been undermined by Christian fundamentalists and group pressure is being inflicted on people to confess to this faith, we also found that that the military's priests have been taken over by christian fundamentalists for most, leaving little military priests left only for people of different faiths. there even have been court cases over this. It all also went through the media, which we also discussed. Add to this that Islam is an identity thing from A to Z which is hardly to be reduced to nationality, ethnics, race, etc. It surpasses the traditional legal definitions of what a citizen of a state, a member of a church etc is. Clear only is that Islam claims an identity for itself that is surpassing all these categories and claims to be superior and necessarily to be seen as dominant to these, and that it wants it mandatory to be seen that way. For such a superioristic selfunderstanding, western laws and constitutions and political understandings or categories of reason have no adequate categories to describe it or to thoroughly understand it, ands that is why we often find ourselves to be helpless in correctly describing (not to mention: resisting) it. We have nothing like this in current Western culture, if excluding Judaism here, which also is hard to be nailed down to ethnicity, confession, race, nationality. If somebody would ask me what makes being Jewish, I would need to pass.

Also, I don't know to what degree this man in Texas also is haunted like so many Palestinians by a past that nevertheless in principle necessarily must be meaningless to him, for he was born as an American. I wanted to show that many Palestinians tend to be very irrational about their status and fate when describing that key-waving experience, so did Torplexed.

If that Major, a "devout Muslim" they say, and having Palestinians roots, now needs to go to Iraq or Afghanistan, it may result necessarily in a conflict for him, because in both wars Muslims get killed, Muslims suffer, and no matter how you look at it, it often is by the hands of the American military. Western ratio of assuming that here is the army, there is the enemy, do not help you much, eventually. and let'S not foprget, claiming "victimship" - is a weapon in the propaganda war. For Islam, Islamic interest go first, always, it is God-wanted that way, and while it not only overrules Western laws in validity and importance (from an islamic perspective), it also means global Umma always and forever is a thousand times more important than the regulation of an Army you do service in, or the nation you live in, and it's laws and constitutions and different values. As part of taqja Muslims are allowed to temporarily submit to foreign rules and laws, and are told to do so. but it is not by conviction, but pragmatism to survive in the place without needing to leave it, it is also a temporary "loyalty" only that is to be cancelled once Islamic ruling has been established.

I see it as possible that this "identity conflict" has broken him, for it is an intrest conflict that is impossible to be solved. It can only be ignored, and rejected. But it still exists, and it cannot be solved. Every other way of thinking of it is just a foul compromise - to stay able to deny that this conflict exists. But it does. and in this case it interacted with other details from this man's life.

Somehow I do not think of this man as an "evil" guy, on the photos he maybe gives the impression of being a bit stupid (or not), but you see a man with friendly eyes - not the cold-hearted shark-eyes of a religious fanatic (look at photos of Ata, Bin Laden or anyone of this kind, and see the difference).

I think this man simply was desperate as a result of factors that have all fallen together since a longer time, and then something just clicked inside his head - and yesterday two trains entered his head's tunnel from both ends simultaneously.

[Jimbuna]

Originally Posted by Biggles

I hope he will be judged by his deeds, not his color, faith, political views or anything else really. I bet he was a nice man, but what he did is inexcusable and he should be severely punished

My thoughts goes to the victims, dead and alive, and their families.

I agree.....this is so terrbily tragic for so many people

[SS107.9MHz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

First, please read my very first post in here. I said clearly that I see this issue as a thing of "mental shortcircuit".
.

Yeah I know, I was agreeing with you, I'm sorry if the comment indicated otherwise, I didn't agree with you on one thing the religion question bit.

[Skybird]

One addtion to that "harassement". I am 100% it was not only about his Muslim identity, but about him being a "Klapsdoktor", a psychiatrist as well. I bet that in every army psychologists do have no easy stand with their comardes and a lot of jokes are made about them. It is a common thing with this professional branch, and not just in the military.

Nevertheless, different to psychologists who studypsychology at university, a psychiatrist must undergo a complete study of medicine at university. And that is no easy task, but one of the most difficulty studies you can do.

[SS107.9MHz]

Yes, but psychologists do spend about the same time studying psychology... which is a bit more time than a psychiatrist does! Well at least in Portugal they do...

Also it's a very different thing giving support and being the therapist for someone in a given situation, and being in the same situation... He probably could't handle it, I wouldn't want to be in his shoes, evenprior to this unfortunate event.

[Skybird]

Originally Posted by SS107.9MHz

Yes, but psychologists do spend about the same time studying psychology... which is a bit more time than a psychiatrist does! Well at least in Portugal they do...

In Germany, too, but psychologists are no qualified medical specialists. That's why they are not allowed to subscribe drugs. Also, the difficulty of studying medicine and psychology - do not compare. In no way. Never. Compared to medicine, regarding learning quantities and workload, studying psychology is holidays. Medical students lack in statistical and methodological teaching, though - it's the one thing where psychology students really learn much more.

Psychiatrists' psychological tools of choice are pharmacy and classical psychoanalysis. Psychologists' psychological tools are all the rest. Psychiatrists are fully trained medical absolvents. Psychologists have just a rather basic oversight on physiology and neurophysiology - nothing of that qualifies them to subscribe according drugs and invasive therapies.

Both for doctors and psychologists, the permission to become practicing full therapist in psychotherapy is also an additional qualification. You cannot study psychotherapy at university, and you are no pychotherapist when having a diploma in medicine or psychology. For psychologists, there even is no academic grade of Dr. or Prof. They become Dr. phil. or Prof. phil instead.

[ETR3(SS)]

I am so utterly disgusted by this latest news. First let me say that I don't give a damn if this guy was Hindu, Muslim, or Christian. When entering the US Military you swear to obey ALL orders of those appointed over you. He was commissioned an officer in US Army and that gives him certain abilities that the enlisted do not get. Namely, at any point, he can choose to resign his commission and cease to be an officer of the US Army. Instead this dirtbag chose to shoot up a base and kill his fellow countrymen. What kind of sick twisted individual would refuse to deploy to a combat zone to possibly kill the enemy, but has no problem slaughtering his fellow countrymen?

Also this guy was NOT a combatant. The odds of him getting hurt or killed are very slim. I highly doubt the Army is desperate enough for officers that it would send this guy out to a Regimental command.

I am so utterly tired of hearing about these guys that don't want to go. If you don't want to go, you shouldn't have joined. What did they think the Army does, or any other branch for that matter, go around giving out candy canes to impoverished children? And would somebody please find me an instance of a woman refusing to deploy? I am completely against women in the military, but it's beginning to seem like they are the only "men" in the service.

[SS107.9MHz]

Originally Posted by Skybird

In Germany, too, but psychologists are no qualified medical specialists. That's why they are not allowed to subscribe drugs. Also, the difficulty of studying medicine and psychology - do not compare. In no way. Never. Compared to medicine, regarding learning quantities and workload, studying psychology is holidays. Medical students lack in statistical and methodological teaching, though - it's the one thing where psychology students really learn much more.

Psychiatrists' psychological tools of choice are pharmacy and classical psychoanalysis. Psychologists' psychological tools are all the rest. Psychiatrists are fully trained medical absolvents. Psychologists have just a rather basic oversight on physiology and neurophysiology - nothing of that qualifies them to subscribe according drugs and invasive therapies.

Both for doctors and psychologists, the permission to become practicing full therapist in psychotherapy is also an additional qualification. You cannot study psychotherapy at university, and you are no pychotherapist when having a diploma in medicine or psychology. For psychologists, there even is no academic grade of Dr. or Prof. They become Dr. phil. or Prof. phil instead.

Yes, we don't prescribe medication, and we do have only basic the knowledge of neuroanatomy, and a bit more on neropsysiology, and lots more in neuropsychology (all different things), but that's because psychologist don't need those tools, our modus operandi is a ewhole other business. Post traumatic stress doesn't go away with medication and psychoanalysis (some would argue it doesn't go away at all) I can assure you that... I'm not saying that medicine is an easier degree than Psychology, by all means, wath I'm saying is that Psychiatrist have a shalower psychology than Clinical Psychologists, in a broad sense, and paying due care that every case is a singular one, and experience is the main variable in taking care of clinical cases.

Sorry for the Hijack!

[Skybird]

Yes and no to all that, but who cares. All I can say is that I do not value all what psychology claims worth to be valued - I heared, saw and read too much babbling in psychology, and it has become too much an opportunistic movement only, busy with securing it's own influence and power in society and it's own control. My advise is to make pragmatic use of what psychology has to offer in good and which is beyond doubt, but beyond that: don't make it a dogma. It its no solid, hard science, but a pseudo-science. It should be seen as having more in common with creative arts and philosophy, than with the idea of hard science.

Yes, thread-hijack, but without bad intentions by anybody. Has happened often before, will happen often again in the future. This is Spar... I mean, this is GT!

When entering the US Military you swear to obey ALL orders of those appointed over you.

No you don't.

He was commissioned an officer in US Army and that gives him certain abilities that the enlisted do not get. Namely, at any point, he can choose to resign his commission and cease to be an officer of the US Army.

No. He was a medical officer who recieved his medical education from the military, as such even though he was a commissioned officer he cannot resign it until they get their moneys worth. Which means a fixed minimum period of service after graduation followed by a fixed minimum period as a reserve.
After all medical education is expensive and even though the US government heavily subsidises all US medical students, military medical students get fully funded education and get paid while they learn.


Apparently according to his family he had offered to pay back his education costs in an attempt to be able quit his job, but was turned down.

[Skybird]

I can understand the military nopt accepting his offer. If you volunteer, you cannot later demand to be allowed to handpick the missions yourself you are willing to embark on. If really that alone is his problem, he hasn't thought about this scenario intense enough before joining the army, or, as they say, the reports of the wounded returning and what he saw in psychological problems in them has horrified him.

They also said he lived an isolated life, having been unable to find a family life and a wife, although he desired that very much. with the isolation he seem to have met in the military as well, and the daily harassment that also is referred to, he must have been under pressure, with religion being his only relief valve, apparently - that may explain why during his amok run he now gets reported to have shouted "Allahu Akhbar".

I really hope this does not turn out to show some Islamic wacko going mad over religious motives only. It would confirm every cliche you could think of about Muslims in vital or critical Western services. Forming hostile attitudes on the basis of cliches only would not do any good to anyone.

I can understand the military nopt accepting his offer.

Yes, but since they were also reporting that his performance was getting worse it does raise questions about the wisdom in keeping someone under contract when they don't want to still be there (or in this case shifting them to somewhere they really don't want to go).