AI U-boat behavior

GoldenRivet · 10-14-09, 01:15 AM

AI U-Boat essential capabilities

The AI U-boats, if included in final release, should be able to complete the following tasks IMHO.

A. Basic Operations
1. Must be able to cruise on the surface at historically accurate speed

2. Must be able to submerge to at least theoretical crush depth.

3. Must be able to maneuver while submerged at least as fast as the player u-boat, and remain submerged for at least as long as the player u-boat given consideration to limitations of Air and Batteries.

4. Must be able to crash dive in a time comparable to the player u-boat's crash dive time.

B. Combat maneuvers
1. Must be capable of surface zig zagging

2. Must be capable of "knuckle port" or "knuckle starboard"

3. must be capable of "double knuckle" port or starboard

4. must be capable of silent running

C. Weapon usage
1. Must be capable of firing the deck gun

2. Must be capable of firing the flak gun

3. Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced

4. Must be capable of firing torpedoes while submerged @ PD

D. Evasive Maneuvers While Surfaced
1. If detected by any armed enemy unit - I sub will dive to the deepest depth possible but not deeper than theoretical crush depth and not deeper than 10 meters above the sea floor.

2. If detected by an unarmed enemy unit - AI sub will attack with the deck gun until such time that it is detected by an armed enemy unit or the target is destroyed.

E. Evasive Maneuvers While Submerged
1. If detected by any armed enemy unit - AI sub will dive to the deepest depth possible but not deeper than theoretical crush depth and not deeper than 10 meters above the sea floor.

2. Upon reaching the desired depth, the AI U-Boat should use a speed setting of ahead slow with silent running enabled.

3. If depth charges are dropped, the AI U-boat should immediately commence any of the 4 basic "knuckle" turns via a roll dice logic.

4. Upon completion of the knuckle turn, ahead slow is resumed and - if equipped - a decoy is released.

in my personal and humble opinion.. if AI U-boats were coded with the above operating parameters... we would have some friends out there who at least pose a fighting chance

THE_MASK · 10-14-09, 01:32 AM

If after playing SH5 you cannot tell the diffrence between player controlled uboat and AI uboat then that is the definition of AI .

difool2 · 10-18-09, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sober

If after playing SH5 you cannot tell the diffrence between player controlled uboat and AI uboat then that is the definition of AI .

The Turing test as applied to submarine AI.

The book Das Boot indicated that Allied subs were a concern-heck they were convinced that the Brits knew the exact time of the U-boats' departure, thanks to spies in port and such.

THE_MASK · 10-18-09, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by difool2

The Turing test as applied to submarine AI.

The book Das Boot indicated that Allied subs were a concern-heck they were convinced that the Brits knew the exact time of the U-boats' departure, thanks to spies in port and such.

Smarty pants

haegemon · 10-18-09, 10:16 PM

"silent running can defeat your sonar and by having them stay at periscope depth it gives you the ability to correctly set your torpedo depths since just finding and hitting subs is going to be hard enough without the need for guessing the correct depth fo a sub that could be changing depth constantly"

A submarine wasn't an easy nor usual target for a submarine. In any case should be targetted while player is at periscope depth while the hostile is on the surface. Or while player is at pericope depth while hostile is engaging at pericope depth.

"Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced (i agree with having the ability but shouldnt the deck gun be the prefered weapon here until its disabled?)"

submarines on the surface could attack with torpedos during night to profit from the surprise effect and the dark.

An AI submarine, the same as player one, must be capable to discriminate enemies. Is diferent target a warship, a troop carrier, or target an enemy passenger liner, enemy refugees carrier, or enemy hospital ship.

(In the games there are 3 status: enemy, neutral and ally. All of them are related to the level of hostility with a country. The point is enemies also have civilian and "neutral" targets which shouldn't be harmed and should not give renown. I doubt HQ encouraged to sink these kind of ships on purpouse and officially. Soviets did in few ocassions.)

10-19-09, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by haegemon

"silent running can defeat your sonar and by having them stay at periscope depth it gives you the ability to correctly set your torpedo depths since just finding and hitting subs is going to be hard enough without the need for guessing the correct depth fo a sub that could be changing depth constantly"

A submarine wasn't an easy nor usual target for a submarine. In any case should be targetted while player is at periscope depth while the hostile is on the surface. Or while player is at pericope depth while hostile is engaging at pericope depth.

what the proper strategy or aproach should be is not the same as the proper way to represent or have it modeled as the AI activity in the game.

what would work the best in the game is what i was talking about.

Quote:

Originally Posted by haegemon

Quote:

"Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced (i agree with having the ability but shouldnt the deck gun be the prefered weapon here until its disabled?)"

submarines on the surface could attack with torpedos during night to profit from the surprise effect and the dark.

well while this is certainly true, it was mainly only done against armed merchants or ships that could pose some threat to the submarine.

during the war there were very limited resources for germany and wasting torpedos when a deck gun used on the surface was able to do the same job was definately considered a waste of valuable resources and this is what i was refering to.

now in the case of another sub you would torpedo it because it can submerge to escape unlike surface ships so im guessing this was what you were refering to.

keltos01 · 10-14-09, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

E. Evasive Maneuvers While Submerged

3. If depth charges are dropped, the AI U-boat should immediately commence any of the 4 basic "knuckle" turns via a roll dice logic.

4. Upon completion of the knuckle turn, ahead slow is resumed and - if equipped - a decoy is released.

in my personal and humble opinion.. if AI U-boats were coded with the above operating parameters... we would have some friends out there who at least pose a fighting chance

the decoy should be released before the knuckle turn so that DDs drop depth charges on empty ocean, otherwise you call them to your new position and help them by going super slow after decoy release !!!!!

just my 2 cents, I agree with all the above !

keltos

GoldenRivet · 10-14-09, 02:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by keltos01

the decoy should be released before the knuckle turn so that DDs drop depth charges on empty ocean, otherwise you call them to your new position and help them by going super slow after decoy release !!!!!

just my 2 cents, I agree with all the above !

keltos

good point

all i really want to ensure is that if we do get AI U-Boats... they dont just duel it out on the surface to the death.

rather pointless.

go back to Janes 688i - they had some fair AI subs in the game. which would vary course and speed and depth for given situations.

i see no reason these German U-boats couldnt do the same with some simple guidance in the form of a set of parameters.

in short... we all know that there will be a mortality rate for AI U-Boats... we just want to do what we can to keep that mortality rate somewhat lower than 100% LOL

IanC · 10-14-09, 03:03 AM

That is asking way too much for AI U-boats. I'm not saying it can't be done, just saying it probably won't. I guarantee you won't see 75% of what you listed as 'essential capabilities'. (but for once, I hope I'm wrong)

GoldenRivet · 10-14-09, 03:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IanC

That is asking way too much for AI U-boats. I'm not saying it can't be done, just saying it probably won't. I guarantee you won't see 75% of what you listed as 'essential capabilities'. (but for once, I hope I'm wrong)

I dont really see what is so difficult about it.

AI subs have been doing much better than that for 15+ years in similar subsims

IanC · 10-14-09, 03:18 AM

Well, with a deadline ahead, I'm guessing the devs are not putting the emphasis on U-boat AI (do we even know if there'll be wolfpacks btw?). But I'm guessing it'll still be more realistic than AOD wolfpacks, just seriously doubting things like AI U-boat captains ordering silent running.

Prove me wrong devs, prove me wrong!

PL_Andrev · 10-14-09, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoldenRivet

AI U-Boat essential capabilities

The AI U-boats, if included in final release, should be able to complete the following tasks IMHO.

Convoy battles:
1. AI should control all ships in convoy, all warships attacked or not detected sumbamines and packs of submarines with tactics and thousand of values.

General map:
2. AI should control thousand of ships with enemy submarines...

All is correct... but not for realise.
We have not a supercomputers...
Sorry.

JU_88 · 10-14-09, 10:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antar

Convoy battles:
1. AI should control all ships in convoy, all warships attacked or not detected sumbamines and packs of submarines with tactics and thousand of values.

General map:
2. AI should control thousand of ships with enemy submarines...

All is correct... but not for realise.
We have not a supercomputers...
Sorry.

huh? You lost me there, fella...

DarkFish · 10-14-09, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JU_88

huh? You lost me there, fella...

yup, me too. Why wouldn't it be realisable? Wouldn't it have pretty much the same inpact on cpu as the strategical units (e.g. the graf spee) have in stock UBM?

JU_88 · 10-14-09, 12:48 PM

Yes why a few people seem to think AI submarines / wolfpacks will require the processing power a super computer is totally beyond me.
This is not the 1970's! There is absolutley ZERO logic behind this argument.
Hell its not even a argument - just jibber jabber (sorry guys but its the truth)

10-14-09, 01:15 AM	#1
GoldenRivet Subsim Aviator Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 8,726 Downloads: 146 Uploads: 0	AI U-boat behavior AI U-Boat essential capabilities The AI U-boats, if included in final release, should be able to complete the following tasks IMHO. A. Basic Operations 1. Must be able to cruise on the surface at historically accurate speed 2. Must be able to submerge to at least theoretical crush depth. 3. Must be able to maneuver while submerged at least as fast as the player u-boat, and remain submerged for at least as long as the player u-boat given consideration to limitations of Air and Batteries. 4. Must be able to crash dive in a time comparable to the player u-boat's crash dive time. B. Combat maneuvers 1. Must be capable of surface zig zagging 2. Must be capable of "knuckle port" or "knuckle starboard" 3. must be capable of "double knuckle" port or starboard 4. must be capable of silent running C. Weapon usage 1. Must be capable of firing the deck gun 2. Must be capable of firing the flak gun 3. Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced 4. Must be capable of firing torpedoes while submerged @ PD D. Evasive Maneuvers While Surfaced 1. If detected by any armed enemy unit - I sub will dive to the deepest depth possible but not deeper than theoretical crush depth and not deeper than 10 meters above the sea floor. 2. If detected by an unarmed enemy unit - AI sub will attack with the deck gun until such time that it is detected by an armed enemy unit or the target is destroyed. E. Evasive Maneuvers While Submerged 1. If detected by any armed enemy unit - AI sub will dive to the deepest depth possible but not deeper than theoretical crush depth and not deeper than 10 meters above the sea floor. 2. Upon reaching the desired depth, the AI U-Boat should use a speed setting of ahead slow with silent running enabled. 3. If depth charges are dropped, the AI U-boat should immediately commence any of the 4 basic "knuckle" turns via a roll dice logic. 4. Upon completion of the knuckle turn, ahead slow is resumed and - if equipped - a decoy is released. in my personal and humble opinion.. if AI U-boats were coded with the above operating parameters... we would have some friends out there who at least pose a fighting chance __________________

10-14-09, 01:32 AM	#2
THE_MASK Ace of the deep . Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 9,226 Downloads: 901 Uploads: 73	If after playing SH5 you cannot tell the diffrence between player controlled uboat and AI uboat then that is the definition of AI .

10-18-09, 10:16 PM	#5
haegemon Medic Join Date: May 2007 Posts: 165 Downloads: 12 Uploads: 0	"silent running can defeat your sonar and by having them stay at periscope depth it gives you the ability to correctly set your torpedo depths since just finding and hitting subs is going to be hard enough without the need for guessing the correct depth fo a sub that could be changing depth constantly" A submarine wasn't an easy nor usual target for a submarine. In any case should be targetted while player is at periscope depth while the hostile is on the surface. Or while player is at pericope depth while hostile is engaging at pericope depth. "Must be capable of firing torpedoes while surfaced (i agree with having the ability but shouldnt the deck gun be the prefered weapon here until its disabled?)" submarines on the surface could attack with torpedos during night to profit from the surprise effect and the dark. An AI submarine, the same as player one, must be capable to discriminate enemies. Is diferent target a warship, a troop carrier, or target an enemy passenger liner, enemy refugees carrier, or enemy hospital ship. (In the games there are 3 status: enemy, neutral and ally. All of them are related to the level of hostility with a country. The point is enemies also have civilian and "neutral" targets which shouldn't be harmed and should not give renown. I doubt HQ encouraged to sink these kind of ships on purpouse and officially. Soviets did in few ocassions.)

10-14-09, 03:03 AM	#9
IanC Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Running silent and deep Posts: 902 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	That is asking way too much for AI U-boats. I'm not saying it can't be done, just saying it probably won't. I guarantee you won't see 75% of what you listed as 'essential capabilities'. (but for once, I hope I'm wrong)

10-14-09, 03:18 AM	#11
IanC Grey Wolf Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Running silent and deep Posts: 902 Downloads: 3 Uploads: 0	Well, with a deadline ahead, I'm guessing the devs are not putting the emphasis on U-boat AI (do we even know if there'll be wolfpacks btw?). But I'm guessing it'll still be more realistic than AOD wolfpacks, just seriously doubting things like AI U-boat captains ordering silent running. Prove me wrong devs, prove me wrong!

10-14-09, 12:48 PM	#15
JU_88 Silent Hunter Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: UK Posts: 3,803 Downloads: 11 Uploads: 0	Yes why a few people seem to think AI submarines / wolfpacks will require the processing power a super computer is totally beyond me. This is not the 1970's! There is absolutley ZERO logic behind this argument. Hell its not even a argument - just jibber jabber (sorry guys but its the truth)