How not to avoid jury duty

[Hitman]

Perhaps y'all would prefer a system where the state judges your innocence or guilt? Because that is what you are asking for when you duck your duty as a citizen.

Well in continental Europe we have had that system work for centuries and the end-results are not worser than with Jury. In fact here in Spain the percentage of judicial errors with the Jury is significantly higher than with a court of professional Judges. Spanish lawyers have here a say: "If I'm innocent let me be judged by a professional, if guilty by a Jury"

In the end it is just a political option, though I admit that I have never seen quirurgical medical operations or constructing a skyscraper by a Jury instead of a professional ...

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by August

I have to agree but it's a sad commentary on our social system that we can't afford to take time off to do the most basic of civic duties.

That is to be expected of the state. Since it typically understands neither incentive nor efficiency, the current jury selection system is not a surprise.

Imo, the real problem here is the tremendous complexity of our legal system. It is all but incomprehensible to the average person. Both of the juries I served on understood little more than the closing arguments. I read legal dictionaries for fun, I was in student court for four years, and I recently passed my roomate's online law exam, and even I didn't understand some of what was going on. Working hard for comparitively low pay and no personal material gain is a huge disincentive. Why do you think the military has trouble enlisting anyone but the most dedicated, idealistic, or foolish?

There are few people that really respect the legal industry, and with good reason. Lawyers and politicians rank about the same on the "detestability-meter" for most people. No small coincidence that most politicians are/were lawyers, nor that both are generally renowned for lying.
How curious that legislators make laws, and are also members of the industry that specializes in them

The legal industry is a natural monopoly, and a paragon of state/business collusion. It has created a real monopoly by making it's product beyond the reach of anyone who is not a part of it. Institutions have been formed that ensure this, such as the Trial Lawyers' Association and the ABA. Not intentionally, but naturally.
I'm sure you are aware of, and perhaps share, the nigh-universal disgust with many aspects of the modern legal system, in the same way that you would hate a monopoly that charged exorbitant prices for goods that you need.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of many conservatives, the best way to avoid this kind of thing is to limit/disperse the legislative power of the state. Should such a thing ever be accomplished, it would destroy the market niche for extraneous services like a complex, non-productive, and harmful legal industry.

Though I share your sense of civic duty, there is more here than that. To uphold one's civic duty means being willing to serve the public good. Is the legal industry really benefitting the public good? I think it is not, but I serve, because it is my duty(and I consider it my duty to make an effort to become proficient in legal discourse). Though that may be admirable in the eyes of a soldier like you or me, it doesn't change the fact that it is ultimately harmful.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by August

How incredibly selfish of this guy (and the rest of you). Perhaps y'all would prefer a system where the state judges your innocence or guilt? Because that is what you are asking for when you duck your duty as a citizen.

Absolutely, 100%, wholeheartedly agree!

Jury duty sucks - no doubt about it. But when the HELL did we become a society of people who can't think 1 inch beyond ourselves?

When you use the garbage excuse about missing work, just remember that most people can use it to. If most people end up doing so, don't get mad when some pay-for-play jury locks you up just because.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

That is to be expected of the state. Since it typically understands neither incentive nor efficiency, the current jury selection system is not a surprise.

Imo, the real problem here is the tremendous complexity of our legal system. It is all but incomprehensible to the average person. Both of the juries I served on understood little more than the closing arguments. I read legal dictionaries for fun, I was in student court for four years, and I recently passed my roomate's online law exam, and even I didn't understand some of what was going on. Working hard for comparitively low pay and no personal material gain is a huge disincentive. Why do you think the military has trouble enlisting anyone but the most dedicated, idealistic, or foolish?

There are few people that really respect the legal industry, and with good reason. Lawyers and politicians rank about the same on the "detestability-meter" for most people. No small coincidence that most politicians are/were lawyers, nor that both are generally renowned for lying.
How curious that legislators make laws, and are also members of the industry that specializes in them

The legal industry is a natural monopoly, and a paragon of state/business collusion. It has created a real monopoly by making it's product beyond the reach of anyone who is not a part of it. Institutions have been formed that ensure this, such as the Trial Lawyers' Association and the ABA. Not intentionally, but naturally.
I'm sure you are aware of, and perhaps share, the nigh-universal disgust with many aspects of the modern legal system, in the same way that you would hate a monopoly that charged exorbitant prices for goods that you need.

In my opinion, and in the opinion of many conservatives, the best way to avoid this kind of thing is to limit/disperse the legislative power of the state. Should such a thing ever be accomplished, it would destroy the market niche for extraneous services like a complex, non-productive, and harmful legal industry.

Though I share your sense of civic duty, there is more here than that. To uphold one's civic duty means being willing to serve the public good. Is the legal industry really benefitting the public good? I think it is not, but I serve, because it is my duty(and I consider it my duty to make an effort to become proficient in legal discourse). Though that may be admirable in the eyes of a soldier like you or me, it doesn't change the fact that it is ultimately harmful.

There is no doubt that the trial lawyers (and the legal profession as a whole) are causing excessive harm to our ideals. I read an article recently that stated that there are more lawyers in the STATE of Wisconsin than the entire nation of Japan. I don't really doubt this.

On the other hand, we must not surrender our right to a trial by jury of peers through indifference. People should be compelled to fulfill their civic duty in the most honest manner possible.

But, does anyone want to know what REALLY irks me? This a-hole has the gonads to make jokes about his dog's nuts in an attempt to get out of jury duty, and COMPLETELY ignores the fact that many of us have the same problems as he does!

You know what, jerk? A lot of people other than you can't take time off of work. A lot of us will struggle with our family's well-being. A lot of us feel our system of justice is flawed.

But we still do our duty as citizens.

To be honest, this is the kind of selfish person that deserves a royal ass-kicking from the rest of us. Imagine how great of a society we could be if we weren't picking up the slack left by idiots like this.

[bookworm_020]

I thought all you has to say was "shoot them all and let god sort them out!" After mentioning religion, it would be enough to get you excluded!

[Schöneboom]

My problem with the whole "jury duty" concept is that the state plays us for suckers when it uses the term "duty" -- implying there must be something wrong with you if you don't want to be exploited. If the system had any respect for the individual and actually cared about justice, it would call for volunteers, give them legal training and professional compensation (at least what paralegals earn). These folks would still be your "peers" -- but they would be better prepared and better paid for their time. (I wonder if lawyers would actually want smart jurors, though!)

I don't see how justice is served when the only people in a courtroom who get slave wages are the jurors. The attorneys and the judges rake in the dough, yet the jurors, who have the biggest responsibility of all, are treated like peons! That's what I call an injustice system!

[OrangeYoshi]

Originally Posted by Schöneboom

(I wonder if lawyers would actually want smart jurors, though!)

Probably not. If jurors were legally trained, it would be harder to call upon their empathy for other people. They would know the exact words and interperatations of the laws.

Originally Posted by Aramike

Jury duty sucks - no doubt about it. But when the HELL did we become a society of people who can't think 1 inch beyond ourselves?

The '60's and '70's maybe?

Originally Posted by Hitman

Well in continental Europe we have had that system work for centuries and the end-results are not worser than with Jury. In fact here in Spain the percentage of judicial errors with the Jury is significantly higher than with a court of professional Judges. Spanish lawyers have here a say: "If I'm innocent let me be judged by a professional, if guilty by a Jury"

Yes, but once you take jurors out of the equation, and you leave all judgements to state sponsored professionals, you are only one step away from the legal system of Nazi Germany. You don't want that now do you?

[nikimcbee]

I say we just adopt sharia law. It will expedite everything. Just think of the money we could save.

one machette, 1 blade sharpener, a bunch of softball size stones....

I thought it was going to be a thread for funny/stupid stuff. I admit I was sucked into the serious side. Now I know.

Originally Posted by nikimcbee

I say we just adopt sharia law. It will expedite everything. Just think of the money we could save.

one machette, 1 blade sharpener, a bunch of softball size stones....

Or you could just fire up Yellow Mama!

Intresting statistics.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/inno...-death-penalty

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/juve...-death-penalty

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/ment...-death-penalty

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/us-m...-death-penalty

Etc.