Carlos Santana to Obama...

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by August

Whatever the chemistry the effect is pretty plain to anyone who has been outside of a bar at closing time.

Interesting theory though. I've never heard of "alcohol expectations".

Those fights usually happen because you looked at my girlfriend the wrong way. Misconstrued drunken comments and thoughts mared in a drunken haze often leave a person to think he is Superman. I know more happy drunks than I do angry drunks. If parties were nothing but angry drunks looking to kick eveyones butt, why have a party? Sure, pot and alcohol work in different ways but they both lead to the same end. Depressed nervous system, delusions of grandure and cognative reasoning are compromised.

[Sailor Steve]

A lot of interesting ideas. Rather than quote so many, I'll just add a few more of my own. First, though, I'd especially like to thank Arclight for the observations from one who lives where it's legal. I didn't know about all the illegal parts though.


I've known a lot of pot-smokers in my day, and I won't even try to argue that it's not bad for you. Yes, it does depress the nervous system, sometimes permanently. But we do a lot of other things that are bad for us, and if you try to make greasy hamburgers illegal we really are gonna have a fight!

Yes, smoking is bad for you, and I don't expect to see pot 'bars' spring up everywhere. But again, making something illegal in places where it affects others and making it illegal entirely are two different things, and there are few laws I think are more evil than ones that make you safe from yourself. On top of that, I've never met a user of Mary Jane who was a chain smoker. One joint a day is usually enough to keep him happy. And, other notions aside, many 'potheads' are intelligent, creative, productive members of society.

As for growing it in your backyard, that's where we really differ. Trying to legislate away growing something in the ground? That's where most of comes from now. Another bad thing to do is try to pass laws you can't enforce. I wonder how many people currently grow pot in their homes?

Violence? As I said, I've known many people who smoked weed, and the effect is very different from that produced by rampant alcohol consumption. The ones I've known all become quite mellow when high. They tend to avoid people altogether, and don't like to fight while in that condition. I've never known anyone who got high and then proceeded to beat his wife.

And then there's the driving problem. Drunks either become belligerent or inattentive. Pot-smokers tend to become paranoid. Their biggest traffic problem is driving to slow, looking around all the time to see if they're going to get caught. Do they have less accidents because of it? I don't know.

What I do know is that this is a behavior which is much more benign than drinking, and it's against the law for no other reason that it offends some people's moral standards.

[AVGWarhawk]

What I do know is that this is a behavior which is much more benign than drinking, and it's against the law for no other reason that it offends some people's moral standards.

For some, yes, moral standards. Others because if we let one drug go to legal status, others are soon to follow. I do think that labeling every drunk as violent is a bit presumputious. I know more happy than violent and even these violent ones only get violent when what they feel was a wrong at the time of the drunkeness.

I had a college housemate that smoked all the time. He called it "wake and bake" as this is the first thing he did when he got up for class. He could not function without it. Addictive. Same as alcohol. I had a coworker who like to drink his lunch behind the dumpster. To me, making it legal for tax revenue does not make sense and only adds to the problems facing society concerning alcohol and drugs.

[Sailor Steve]

I didn't mean to imply that every drunk is violent. Sorry if I gave that impression. My point was I've never know a smoker to be that way.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I didn't mean to imply that every drunk is violent. Sorry if I gave that impression. My point was I've never know a smoker to be that way.

Some in the thread are painting a picture as such for drunks. If all were violent, bars would not last long with the broken furniture and lawsuits. You might get one or two on a given Friday or Saturday night. My bro-in-law owns a bar. Very little trouble at all however he catchs drug dealers in the bathroom all the time.

I kind of laugh Steve because the American Indian was very peaceful, smoke peace pipe. All is just mellow and well, we are chasing the wild wolf in our minds after firing up the peace pipe but.....white man arrives with fire water.......nothing but trouble.

[Digital_Trucker]

Originally Posted by Sailor Steve

I didn't mean to imply that every drunk is violent. Sorry if I gave that impression. My point was I've never know a smoker to be that way.

Unless, of course, two of them are fighting over the last bag of Fritos at the 7-11

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

To me, making it legal for tax revenue does not make sense and only adds to the problems facing society concerning alcohol and drugs.

And to me, making it illegal does not make sense and only adds to the problems facing society concerning massive public debt, prison overcrowding, recidivism, violence, and having a nanny state.


I totally share you and Arclights' convictions about the harms of drugs, but the proof that such things cause more harm by being prohibited is all around us.

[Platapus]

I have to admit, this is an issue I am undecided on. Both sides make very good and valid arguments.

I am very happy that this has been a respectful and intelligent discussion with no ad hominem attacks.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

And to me, making it illegal does not make sense and only adds to the problems facing society concerning massive public debt, prison overcrowding, recidivism, violence, and having a nanny state.


I totally share you and Arclights' convictions about the harms of drugs, but the proof that such things cause more harm by being prohibited is all around us.

A few posts back I stated that most who are caught with it get street level justice meaning the cops takes or has the perp throw it in the sewer never to be seen again. Perp goes on his way but name is kept for records and use down the road if needed. The cops usually take the person with pounds of it in the trunk or home with associated large amounts of cash (which is now the states to use and said vehicles in the driveway which is also now the states to use or sell), weapons and other drugs of choice. You get to the big guy and you get a lot of drugs off the street.

All of this does not matter, as I also stated before, pot is just one of the many drugs sold illegally. I do not think legalizing it would even put a dent in what is spent to combat cocaine, crack, heroin and anything else people mix up from the chemicals under the sink.

I am of agreement that the nanny state on pot is perhaps a bit much. If anyone wants to fry their brain or blow their liver apart with excessive alcohol use then who are they to stop it? I guess they think they are the who! Transfats.....gone. Pot, nope. There will be many more the nanny state will impose on society. It is just a matter of time. I do not see pot being legalized or even discussed in Washington.

[Agiel7]

I'd support legalization. Won't be much reason for people killing each other when someone can just buy the stuff from a liquor store.

That said, the problem with drugs doesn't stem from lack of enforcement or regulation, its because of the short-comings of our country's anti-drug informational programs; to say that they are collosal failures of epic proportions is a massive understatement. I remember a cartoon back in my grade-school days where drug dealers were portrayed as giant, menacing blobs (probably due to political correctness, but thats another issue) and that the potheads who represent "peer pressure" are miscreants with malevolent intents. These shock tactics, if anything, are making the problem worse when you consider who the people who are offering you drugs are. I've had plenty of friends in high-school who smoked pot (I live in SoCal mind you) and not once did they offer me a toke. And, if you ever asked for one from them, they didn't give you one because they wanted you to die at 21 from the shrapnel of a re-fried bean can that you put in the microwave during a stoned haze, they're giving you one because they want you to have a good time.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Originally Posted by AVGWarhawk

A few posts back I stated that most who are caught with it get street level justice meaning the cops takes or has the perp throw it in the sewer never to be seen again. Perp goes on his way but name is kept for records and use down the road if needed.

It seems that there is some credence to your argument. This nifty "drug-war clock" http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm shows a vast discrepancy in the number of arrests and incarcerations in this year. However, it also states that 25% of all current inmates were incarcerated on drug charges.

All of this does not matter, as I also stated before, pot is just one of the many drugs sold illegally. I do not think legalizing it would even put a dent in what is spent to combat cocaine, crack, heroin and anything else people mix up from the chemicals under the sink.

That is why I advocate the legalization of all drugs. However, even the legalization of marijuana alone would eliminate about half of all drug violations, so says the drug clock and U.S. statistics on criminal justice by offense. I think it is a step in the right direction, and is worth bringing to the attention of legislators and the public.


@Agiel 17-

Man, don't even get me started on some of the drug prevention programs I went through in school. Some of the same stuff. Four white guys doing a pitiful rap about how drugs are "uncool" is not the way to go. I hope they've developed better methods recently.

[Frame57]

I cannot reference stats, nor do I care to. However, I grew up with friends who were real Potheads. Many of them never amounted to jack squat in life and are the most un-motivated people I know. I am sure the same could be said about alchoholics. There seems to be an effect that is peculiar to Pot that takes the wind out someones sails for what ever reason. Just what this Country needs is more lazy bums who want to get high all the time.

[AVGWarhawk]

Originally Posted by UnderseaLcpl

It seems that there is some credence to your argument. This nifty "drug-war clock" http://www.drugsense.org/wodclock.htm shows a vast discrepancy in the number of arrests and incarcerations in this year. However, it also states that 25% of all current inmates were incarcerated on drug charges.


That is why I advocate the legalization of all drugs. However, even the legalization of marijuana alone would eliminate about half of all drug violations, so says the drug clock and U.S. statistics on criminal justice by offense. I think it is a step in the right direction, and is worth bringing to the attention of legislators and the public.


@Agiel 17-

Man, don't even get me started on some of the drug prevention programs I went through in school. Some of the same stuff. Four white guys doing a pitiful rap about how drugs are "uncool" is not the way to go. I hope they've developed better methods recently.

I'm willing to bet the 25% are those that were caught with X amount and concidered as dealers. A small baggy is just a users. Recreational users as it were. Cops do not have the time to fart around with him/her. Bag taken or dumped in the sewer. Street level justice complete. Perp never sees the jail cell. Cops look for the dealers. It would be interesting if all illegal drugs were legalized. The market to sell is gone along with the associated nonsense. Speaking for myself, if all were legal I certainly would not be at 7-11 looking to make a purchase. No interest at all. Hell, I might have a scotch and water every three months. We have to admit though, some take the path of drug use and never get off the path nor become anything remotely close to productive. Of all the drugs, crack cocaine is probably the worst. I suspect drug usage would not go up by much because people like myself have no interest. Continued non-interest would stay the same in most cases. It would be strange though, arrive to a party, a keg, hard liquor and a big bowl of weed with bong included. Lines in the back room if interested.

[NeonSamurai]

A lot of people though get convicted of being dealers who really were not due to low requirements, like 5 or 10 grams. A lot of my pot head friends use to buy in bulk to save money and time (so they wouldn't have to be buying it all the time). Now occasionally they might sell a bit of it to a friend but they typically wouldn't make anything from the sale (just a favor so to speak).

One simple fact is people are going to do drugs, legal or not. Kids are going to be tempted to it as they are to everything that is prohibited to them (like sex, alcohol, and smoking) and also perceived as cool (but being cool is often tied to doing prohibited things).

Personally my suggestion would be just higher tolerance towards weed from law enforcement (which compared to smoking and alcohol is about the same). Allow people to grow a bit in their back yard, ignore small quantities, and encourage people not to smoke it publicly. That is more or less Canada's attitude (it depends on each city though). Law enforcement here mainly seems to be concerned with harder drugs, large dealers, and grow ops. In my youth in Montreal, the Police usually wouldn't even bother dumping what they found, often they would just give it back (unless it was a big quantity like half a pound or something).

[Arclight]

Another "problem" I'd like to bring to light is the increased potency. "nederwiet" (marijuana grown in Holland) contains 2 to 3, even 4 times as much THC. Average for import has been 5%, for localy grown it's currently 17,5% (although it peeked in 2004 at 20%). There has been some discusion whether or not this stuff should be clasified as a hard-drug.

I don't know if this is the same everywhere, but the Dutch government makes a distinction between hard- and softdrugs, based on the risk (how likely it is to screw someone up, basically); you can use weed for years and then quit without to much side-effects. Try heroïne a couple of times and you're hooked for life, unless you're of a particular strong mind.



Legalizing heroïne and crack?

I can understand the benefit in that it frees up money that would go in battling it, but seriously...

It's just an entirely different ballpark; it gets you addicted in a heartbeat and is almost impossible to kick. On top of that, it's so destructive it's impossible to function. I don't see how you can possibly legalize something that is by definition evil (the act of legalizing it would in itself be evil as well).

Some definitions:

1. Morally bad or wrong; wicked: an evil tyrant.
2. Causing ruin, injury, or pain; harmful: the evil effects of a poor diet.