Religion 101 Final Exam

[Aramike]

*Yawn*

So?

So, I made my point regarding this in the entirety of my previous post. Just typing "so?" does nothing to refute or invalidate that argument.

I think all beliefs, including atheism, are open to criticism, no matter how strongly they are held. Is that clear enough?

Of course. Heck, why stop there? Why not criticize a 9 year old for believing in Santa Claus?

I'm not trying to equate religion with a juvenile belief, by the way. My point is that, just because something is subject to criticism, doesn't mean one must take said action.

Sure, there are many reasons that I personally don't find myself believing in any deity. Frankly, I wish I could. However, that doesn't mean I'm going to blatantly find fault in those who are able to make the mental leap that I cannot.

If you don't believe in the concept of a God, go nuts. If someone is attempting to unduly impress upon you the existance of God in a way that truly affects your life, I encourage you to rebuttal.

But to challenge a belief system solely because it irritates your sensibilities is an invitation for conflict that, quite frankly, makes you into the "smaller" person.

Like I said, and cannot stress enough - I don't necessarily disagree with you. However, I don't appreciate your approach (especially since it's based upon your intolerence). If you wish to debate the validity of a deity, you should be able to do so without making fun of those who disagree. Especially considering that one's belief about the essense of oneself is so fundamental...

How can making the case for atheism take any other form but a rebuttal?

You're correct.

But, that again begs the question: why? More reasoning follows...

And it seems like any criticism of conspiracy theories, UFOlogy, etc. would also be verboten in your world.

Not at all.

First of all, I don't lump people who find religion as the basis of their very existance in with UFOs, etc. Secondly, I believe that many conspiracy theories are crackpot in nature, and I'll freely argue against them...

...yet, I don't START the discussion. I believe, if you're going to be a crackpot, go nuts. Should you publically try to convert others to your views, well, you should expect a rebuttal.

See, the difference between our approaches is that, due to my disbelief, I feel no need to pursue the subject. For some reason, many atheists (including yourself) do feel that need.

Why? Atheism is the absence of the belief. As such, the belief doesn't concern you. On the occasion that is does, I agree that a rebuttal makes sense. But to make fun simply to incite, well that makes your atheism just about as "religious" as Christianity.

In my view, at list Christianity has a point. Atheism is nothing more than "nope".

So you're intolerant as well?

In some cases, yes. But the reasoning behind the things I'm intolerent of is far more complex that "I don't like that".

Or do you in fact tolerate everything, including genocide, racism, etc... Everyone's intolerant of something.

I think I just cleared that up.

Oh, and by the way - belief in a deity is not quite genocide.

What can stop this from happening? Oh, I don't know, maybe discussing the issue? Maybe some parents change their minds, maybe some don't.

Impractical and pie-in-the-sky. Also, quite honestly, unimportant.

Parents can only be responsibly expected to raise their children according to their personal belief systems. Just because you wish this wasn't reality doesn't make it unreal.

Yup, sounds like I think it's all bad.

Just because you say you like certain derivatives of religion doesn't mean you don't believe that belief in a deity is "bad".

Besides - the inconsistancy of your viewpoint is staggering. You hate religion enough to lampoon your percieved belief in its "silliness", yet you claim to appreciate the products of religion. Hmm...

Show me where I said you can't discuss the discussion.

A weak argument designed to dodge the point. Here, let me illustrate in my next rebuttal:

Sorry. Is satire aimed at religion always meaningless?

Show me where I said satire against religion is always meaningless.

Silly response, right?

That's an infringement of free speech? If you're going to interpret "free speech" so expansively for no reason, how can you not see that your argument is guilty of the same thing?

Not at all "guilty" of the same thing. I didn't make the point that you shouldn't bring up the topic ... I merely was suggesting the wanton incitefulness of your bringing it up, and whether or not it was a responsible use of free speech.

[Aramike]

Originally Posted by CaptainHaplo

Actually Aramike - you could take that "empty" box and open it and say HA - no diamonds - to which a person of faith could point out that the air inside said box contains portions of carbon - the same substance of which diamonds are made. While it may not be VISIBLE to you, diamonds do exist in the box. They are simply not in a form you RECOGNIZE as diamonds.

Sure, one could say that. But words being words and meaning what they mean, it would be intellectually dishonest to do so.

I diamond isn't simply the element that it is made up. That's why we don't call a diamond a "carbon".

Spiritually/metaphysically/whatever other term you want to use - the facts are no matter how much you may see - the building blocks are ENERGY. The positive proton, the neutral neutron, and the negative electron. Each atom working in concert with each other - and we still don't understand how or why exactly. But the fact is that if you took an atom with one p/e pair, added another p/e pair - you changed what that atom "is" - and all you really did was modify its mass and electrical charge. *Don't even get me started on Ions and such*

If you see everything as simply energy - the rock is the same as water - just in a different form - or electrical state. Sure this is a VERY basic explanation, but when you get down to the low levels of substance structure - they are made up of the same stuff. Its all energy in motion - just different "charges" or speeds.

So many try to say "Well you can't prove God exists" - or "Well you can't prove He/She/It doesnt", that they lose the beauty of this realm with wasted arguments. I don't have to prove God exists, not to Angus or anyone else. I have enough proof for ME personally, and thats all I need. I see that proof in the things that science can not only NOT explain, but those things that defy every known law of science observed since humanity has been able to record scientific findings. Look at the power of splitting a mere atom - look at the fact that by rights, atoms themselves defy scientific explanation under currently understood physics (since a positive and negative charge would attract and thus cancel each other out - instead of one continually orbiting the other....), etc etc. I need look no further than science to see the wonderful DESIGN of this universe and realize that its complexity is well beyond the human mind to be fully understood. Science is a quest for knowledge - and religion is often the same. They need not be mutually exclusive - though many Athiests feel they should.

The reason Athiests so want to deny a Deity, is because that would make them less than the penultimate being. Pride is a stumbling block for many, but for those that would deny Deity, I would simply point to this world and say, my - how we have so created a paradise by being the "highest being". It is a hard and bitter pill, but if nothing else - humanities failures and we still exist is also a wonderful example of a "higher" hand.

Edit - for those that want to quote science - allow me to remind you of the Law of Conservation of Matter and Energy - no matter or energy can be created or destroyed - it simply changes form. This law is an amazing statement on the spiritual soul and its relationship to your "living" consciousness - you WILL exist after your physical body dies - so science itself has claimed. One can argue whether or not "you" (being the consciousness in some form) will exist - but there is no way science can prove or disprove that. It simply states that some form of you will exist for all time. People of faith simply expect that form to be one that has a level of awareness in some way. Before you ridicule that, you may want to realize that even things that were deemed "not conscious" years ago (like plants) - have been found to communicate and even reactions that denote intellegence without a known scientific explanation.
See http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/content/view/1160/ for an example. Just because science has a theory on something yesterday, or today, or tommorow - does not mean that understanding cannot mature. Do not ridicule just because you cannot fathom it. Your mind is finite. Seek knowledge - and you will find. Be it science, or theology. The wise man seeks to learn, and not merely mock.

While I do agree with another poster that your view on particle physics is a tad behind the times, I also do agree with the principles behind your post in general.

I had you wrong, Haplo, due to my getting too emotional during our previous debate. While I still do vehemently disagree with a certain viewpoint that we've discussed, I have also recently found you to be quite a bit more insightful than I gave you credit for. Kudos.

Interesting discussion so far. One point came up I have to elaborate on. That is the acusation of atheists 1. actually "wanting" not to believe so they feel better and more important as human beeings an 2. try to have a go at christians or other religious folks.

To both a want to state personal expiriences.

1. ....is bullocks. Atheists hardly ever consider themselves more important without a god. On the opposite, most atheists I know can live with the realisation that humans are nothing more then animals that instead of developing special claws, teeth or other features important to survival of the fittest came up with a brain and intelligence. Undoubtly the most successfull survival tool so far, though maybe too successful, given what we do to our planet and our own basis of survival. Ppl like me are actually "unable" to believe in a god, because an allmighty God, especially the way it's percieved by monotheistic religions, just does not make any sense....at all. Then again, considering human nature, the environment and circumstances in which religions start, the way religion is more then often is abused for power gambles and personal gain, the wish of ppl for community and sharing the same morale norms, it makes total sense how religion was created in the first place.
Atheists don't feel any better then others, they just do not care to run with the flock just because of principal or because others tell them to do so. Most christians are christians because they grew up within christians communities, not because they once had the active choice of chosing. Were they born in middle eastern or asian countries they most probably would have shared the dominant religions there.

2. I had a christian upbringing. Most of my life I never had a problem with christians. In fact, up until a couple years ago I fought "for" christianity on boards like these, disputing claims of christians beeing evil for the crusades, witch burnings and all the other bad in the world, but beeing the roots of our culture and morales.
That has only changed, and to the complete opposite, after christians went into the offensive the last couple years, trying to force me into their morale standarts, trying to bring their private and personal affairs into the open and public big time. As long people stay at home with religion I have zero problems with it. But as soon they come out and try to make my life harder with their often hypocritical morale views, then it's time to fight back. By now christians in general made such a bad impresion on me, especially american ones (sorry, but these are the most vocal ones) I developed an almost militaristic view on these sects that want to bring down enlightment, human rights and progress of humankind. The same holds true to most other atheists, good and peaceful folks, but not willing to give away rights and privileges our forefathers wrestled from the church in long and hard struggles. After all you have to remember that the church, in Europe at least, was as much an opressor as any authocratic regime. That is still remembered. And the rule of religion falls into the same book as comunism and fascism, the absolute rule of one ideology opressing all others. Yes, I do feel threatend by christians and I am by far not the only one. We had the dark ages, thank you very much, no repetition required.

Now if there were more christians opposing these tendencys I'd have enough trurt in these communities to be valuable parts of society. But these voices of reason within christianity are way to few and way too passive to make any real impression. This is true for catholicism as well as the more fanatical american sects whose preachers appear even over here in ever greater numbers.

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

"Christianity/Odinism Motivator picture

Yet Christianity has 2.1 billion members and all neo-pagan religions put together barely make up 1 million. Guess the cross beats the hammer by a 2100 to 1 margin.

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by antikristuseke

As for your last point, you are wrong. I as an atheist, and all atheists I have spoken to, are not disbelievers because we want to belive to be the highest form in existance but because there simply is no evidence for any diety. That is all there is to it, I am not saying that there can be no god, I am saying there is no reason to belive that there is a god, though should evidence come to light I will change my position. This is the position of any self respecting atheist.

Originally Posted by Bewolf

Atheists hardly ever consider themselves more important without a god.

Christians like to call atheism 'The Godless Religion'. Most of the atheists I have spoken to also feel the same way as you two. The problem comes with a vocal few (isn't that always the case?) who come off sounding like religious fanatics. Ellen Johnson, the recently deposed head of the American Atheist Society, was one of those. Her attitude always seemed to be "There is no god, and you are an idiot to believe in one!"

I see a bit of that here as well. Like any fanatical belief, that attitude only adds fuel to the fire. I agree: I've looked long and hard, and can find no evidence for the existence of any superior being, let alone a supreme one. But I'm not a devout atheist either, possibly because I'm afraid to wholly let go of former beliefs; but I like to think it's because I'm keeping a truly open mind on the subject.

On the other hand, if you accept that there's a God, you then have to deal with the problem that every True Believer on the planet is convinced that his God is the right one, the only one, and if you don't believe him you're going straight to hell without a chance of parole. So which one do you choose?

[Aramike]

. ....is bullocks. Atheists hardly ever consider themselves more important without a god.

This statement is true for SOME. There are indeed others who approach the issue with a sense of self-importance.

after christians went into the offensive the last couple years, trying to force me into their morale standarts, trying to bring their private and personal affairs into the open and public big time. As long people stay at home with religion I have zero problems with it. But as soon they come out and try to make my life harder with their often hypocritical morale views, then it's time to fight back. By now christians in general made such a bad impresion on me, especially american ones (sorry, but these are the most vocal ones)

I am curious as to how your life has been made harder...

What makes a bad impression upon me (someone who's wholly agnostic) is when atheists claim things such as a Ten Commandments display makes their lives harder...

[Sailor Steve]

Originally Posted by Aramike

What makes a bad impression upon me (someone who's wholly agnostic) is when atheists claim things such as a Ten Commandments display makes their lives harder...

Doesn't make my life harder, but I have to say that I used to be one who thought fighting the Ten Commandments displays at courthouses was silly. These days I find myself asking: What to the Ten Commandments have to do with civil law?

Originally Posted by Aramike

This statement is true for SOME. There are indeed others who approach the issue with a sense of self-importance.

I am curious as to how your life has been made harder...

What makes a bad impression upon me (someone who's wholly agnostic) is when atheists claim things such as a Ten Commandments display makes their lives harder...

The 10 amandmends certainly don't make my life any harder.

And I never said so. Something I am pretty sure you are aware of.
Please, I respect your intelligence, don't insult mine by deliberately misreading, kay?

In fact, I respect the ten amandmends, as much as I do respect the biblical figure of Jesus (don't know eough about the historical one). He was on the right track with his views and examples. I hardly have a problem with the original message but what christianity made out of it in the course of history and their need for a frightening god to make ppl comply with these messages.
I have a problem when instead of philosophy in school, where common values for all ppl are taught, no matter if christians, jews, muslims etc, is sabotaged by christians who want seperate religious lessons, seperating ppl, giving each of them a different set of values. That is a perfect way to fracture society and hindering integration of, for example muslim communities, into western standarts of values, indepedant of religion. As happend in Berlin recently. Our society is based on enlightment, not religion, respect that as much as atheists respect the right for privatlly held religion.
I have a problem with christians attempting to bring creationism or intelligent design into biology. Or trying to redefine scientific terms like "theory" to label their theology and make it appear reputable.
I have a problem with christians trying to hinder children to learn about sexuality, trying to force them into morale values that are deeply questionable. not because they have no possibility to live those values themselves, but because they want to force others to learn and accept them, too.
I have a problem with christians trying to convert me, or my family into their line of thinking.
I have a problem with prominent christians stating that human rights are not compatible with the bible and just a fashion of the modern era.
I have a problem with christians rather accepting holocaust deniers then liberals within their ranks, as happend here just recently with the catholic church.
I have a problem with religions that want to shut down peopls brain and let them follow a book without question. But that is something christianity shares with quite a couple other ideologies.
And last but not least, I have a problem with religious folks constant attempts to make ppl afraid of god when they don't do as he commands. We had enough dicatorships in real life, no need for any more on the imagination level. I rather rely on common sense when solving problems then to stick what folks wrote into a book 2000 years ago, especially when there are quite a couple other religions out there with contradicting world views.
2.1 billion christians there may be, but that leaves 5 billion thinking otherwise.

[geetrue]

It would be very hard to deny the fact that all things are spiritual no matter what religon you follow or even for a person that denies that there is no God.

A quicking of your spirit feeds the flesh from food to a snake charmer to a naked lady (for most of us).

The baby cries with its first breath ... a spirit is born into the world.

A dog gets caught chasing cars and is run over now stiff and dead, but before that moment arrived the dog was full of energy barking and chasing
after the cars on the road.

The body is dead without the spirit.

Saint Paul in a letter to the church at Corinth said,

"Now we did not receive the spirit of the world, but we received the Spirit that is from God so that we can know all that God has given us.

And we speak about these things, not with words taught us by human wisdom but with words taught us by the Spirit.

And so we explain spiritual truths to spiritual people. A person who does not have the Spirit does not accept the truths that come from the Spirit of God.

That person thinks they are foolish and cannot understand them, because they can only be judged to be true by the Spirit."

As for the Ten Commandments the first christians were non-jews taught by the Jewish disciples including St Paul. but when the problem arose that they had to conform to the Jewish customs which certainly included circumcision and the laws of Moses to follow the Ten Commandments this is what St Paul had to say,

"Tell me this one thing: How did you receive the Holy Spirit? Did you receive the Spirit by following the law?

No, you received the Spirit because you heard the Good News and believed it. You began your life in Christ by the Spirit.

Now are you trying to make it complete by your own power? That is foolish."

I believe that the blood of Jesus paid for all of my sins on the cross at Calvary. That is when Jesus loved us ...
when you love Jesus thats when something super natural happens.

I believe Jesus is the son of God and that He now resides in heaven at the right hand side of God,
but He also lives in the heart of every believer through the power of the Holy Spirit.

I have to die to find out if I am right ...

That's when it will be too late for many, even if they did profess to follow after Jesus and call themselves christians.

Jesus said to his own disciples,

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?

And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!

[Aramike]

The 10 amandmends certainly don't make my life any harder.

And I never said so. Something I am pretty sure you are aware of.
Please, I respect your intelligence, don't insult mine by deliberately misreading, kay?

I wasn't diliberately misreading - I was making a point that had nothing to do with you.

Please don't insult my intelligence by regarding my points as so simplistic to be centered upon one individual.

[CaptainHaplo]

Aramike - thanks. Rather nice of you to say that. We will have to agree to disagree on that one topic, and I am pleased we both respect the rights of the other to see it as they do.

For those who pointed out my particle physics is a bit dated - yea well - so am I!

Its been near 20 years since I had a physics class - I am sure some breakthroughs have been made. I also admit the explanation was also very basic. I am glad to see that some got the point I was trying to make.

Now I am rather vocal when I see someone professing a faith and failing to abide by its tenents. I do so privately - to counsel and help that person grow. Its not done with hostility, but with the hope that they can recognize and correct their error themself. That choice is theirs. You said that "since Chrisitianity has gone on the offensive" - but I must ask - can you give specifics? I can point to numerous instances where Chrisitanity - and Christianity only - has been targetted and persecuted. If anything, I would say that modern Christianity has become alot more DEFENSIVE than in the past. At least, here in this country.

In the US during the 1980's, there was a movement called the "Moral Majority" - led by very conservative, fundamentalist Christian "preachers" and devotees, who did try repeatedly to force their moral values on our nation. They were strongly rebuffed, as they rightly should have been. Nowadays, the only time I see any moral discussion tends to be on the issues of abortion and gay marriage. Any other time Christianity is involved in a discussion - its as a target for ridicule and persecution. For example, the movement to call Christmas simply the "Holiday Season". Why is this targetted persecution? Because while you can't say "Christmas", you sure can say Hannukah, Kwanza, and Yule (which is a byproduct of ancient Paganism). Only "Christmas" is off limits.

Now if you were a person of the Christian faith, wouldn't you get a bit defensive when a "holiday display" could have all kinds of things in it, but you are not allowed to display a manger scene. Or involved in a "holiday parade" - the only restriction being there would be no CHRISTIAN themed floats - but everything else is ok?

I won't defend every action made by a person calling themselves "Christian", but in a case like this thread - there was no provocation offered - it was started simply as what appeared to be an attack on people of one specific faith.

There have been numerous threads discussing and contrasting Islam and Christianity for example. Each person has had the opportunity to put forth their view, and note or link supporting information. Thats a discussion - or at least the beginnings of one. This thread - started simply as a "Look at the stupidity of those who think this". At least, that is how it appeared in my view.

I could offer a lot more difficult contradictions found in the Bible, some that have I have posed to some rather well known theologians and they looked at me stumped. I don't need to, because I am secure in what I know - or believe (use whatever term you wish) - and have no need to make anyone else question their path.

To hold someone or their belief up for ridicule, is akin to insulting them for no good reason. Its often done to try to make the person ridiculing them feel superior without good cause. A sad commentary, but often true.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by August

Yet Christianity has 2.1 billion members and all neo-pagan religions put together barely make up 1 million. Guess the cross beats the hammer by a 2100 to 1 margin.

But my god has a hammer... a hammer that has the ability to cause the Earth to quake and shake at its very foundation; a hammer that can fill the land with a clamoring boom as it smashes all who oppose it.

[August]

Originally Posted by Stealth Hunter

But my god has a hammer... a hammer that has the ability to cause the Earth to quake and shake at its very foundation; a hammer that can fill the land with a clamoring boom as it smashes all who oppose it.

Bah demi-god kid stuff.

If my God wanted to hammer he'd hammer in the morning, he'd hammer in the evening, all over this land. He'd hammer out danger, he'd hammer out a warning, he'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters, all over this land.

[Stealth Hunter]

Originally Posted by August

Bah demi-god kid stuff.

If my God wanted to hammer he'd hammer in the morning, he'd hammer in the evening, all over this land. He'd hammer out danger, he'd hammer out a warning, he'd hammer out love between my brothers and my sisters, all over this land.

BAM!

Originally Posted by Aramike

I wasn't diliberately misreading - I was making a point that had nothing to do with you.

Please don't insult my intelligence by regarding my points as so simplistic to be centered upon one individual.

Q.E.D.


But not worth the discussion.